Macedonia, Troy, Sparta and names in Arrian's Indica

Identifying meaning and location. Aiming to create maps and a list.
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Macedonia, Troy, Sparta and names in Arrian's Indica

Post by ott »

[introduction/ explanation will be added]

* Macedonia - Μακεδονία → MÁKADON — past plural of 'make': (they/we) made

[011] THA MÁKADON HJA THIT HÁGE THERP
2e. they made this high mound
[038] MÁKADON HJA.RA DVM ÀND DIMME BI.T LJUCHT
4f. they [made] them ignorant and dim by the light
[071] THÉR WI NV FON STÉN MÁKADON
9d. which we now [made] of stone
[139] THÉRBINNA MÁKADON HJA BYLDON ÀFTER JESUS
15c. in these they (...) made images in the likeness of Yesus

*Troy - Τροία (in Oera Linda: TROJA/TRÔJE) → (BI)TROWA — verb or noun 'trust' (also: TRJVW-)

[004] IK SEZ AN TROWE ÀND TID SKIL.ET JECHTA
1b. For I say in truth [or: trust/loyalty], and time shall bear it out
[060] ANNA TROW [30] EWÍDENA (...) FON.THÉRE.TROW.EWENDENA (...)
8e. ‘adherents of truth and loyalty’ (...) ‘abhorrers of truth and loyalty’ [about 'Druids']
[067] VMBE THÀT KÀLTA HJRASELVA NAVT TO FÜL BITROWADE
9c. Because Kelta did not feel secure [or: trust herself] enough
[072] THÉR HJA ALSA GOD KVNDE TROWA AS MINERVA
9e. whom they could trust as readily as Minerva
[089] GOLA JEFTHA TROWÍDA
12. Gola, or Trowids (Druids)
[104] IN BITROWA THÀT ET KÍMA GROJA ÀND FRÜCHDA JÉVA MÉI
13g. trusting that it may sprout, grow, and bear fruit
[202] THA ELDRA HIM SKOLDE TROW BILÍWA
19b. their parents would remain loyal to him
[210] TO BORG HJARAR TROW
19f. as a guarantee of loyalty

*Sparta - Σπάρτα → SPÁRA — verb 'save/spare'

[031] THA ROKA HROPATH SPÁR. SPÁR. MEN HJA STÉLON ÀND VRSLYNATH ALHWAT VNDER HJARA SNAVELA KVMATH
4d. The crows cry: “spare, spare!”, but they steal and devour all they get into their beaks.
[064] THÉRMITH SPÁRATH HJA LINNENT UT
9a. Thus, they no longer use [or: save] linen
[117] THRVCHDAM HJRA BURCH ALLÉNA SPÁRAD WAS
14b. since only her burg had been spared

Arrian's Indica

8/8-13 A tale about how pearls were discovered and gathered from the sea, with a note saying that in the 'Indian' tongue the treasure is called μαργαρίτης (Margarita/Margaret).
In Fryas MÁR is lake or sea (Latin: mare) and GARJA or GÁRA is gather. GÁRED or GÁRAD would be past perfect and GÁRATH present plural: they/we (have) gathered. In Fryas, the name literally means 'gathered from the sea': MÁR.GÁRED.

[021] VMBE SKÀT TO GARJA SKOLDE HJA ELLA VRRÉDA
3b. To accumulate [or: gather] wealth, they would betray all
[099] NÉNE WISHÉD TO FINDANE NER TO GARJANDE BUTA THAM
13e. No wisdom can be found or gathered outside of them
[136] VMBE WISDOM TO GETTANE ÀND TO GÁRANE
15c. to find and garner [or: gather] wisdom
[141] THÉRUT SKIL.ET FOLK NYE KRÀFTA GÁRA
15c. from it the folk will gather new strength

This word is also used in burg name WALHALLAGÁRA, compare: Minnagara (Μιννάγαρα), a city of the Indo-Scythian kingdom, located on the Indus river.

More spectacular names from Arrian's relatively unknown Indica (sometimes added as part VIII to his Anabasis of Alexander) will be added in later posts of this thread.
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Re: Macedonia, Troy, Sparta and names in Arrian's Indica

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Arrian, Indica - 22. [5]
ὁ δὲ λιμὴν μέγας καὶ εὔκυκλος καὶ βαθὺς καὶ ἄκλυστος, ὁ δὲ ἔσπλοος ἐς αὐτὸν στεινός.
τοῦτον τῇ γλώσσῃ τῃ ἐπιχωρίῃ »Γυναικῶν λιμένα« ἐκάλεον,
ὅτι γυνὴ τοῦ χώρου τούτου πρώτη ἐπῆρξεν.

As used in Dylan James 2020 article:
The harbour is large, circular, deep, and calm, but the entrance to it is narrow;
in the local tongue this is called »‘Women’s Harbour’«,
since the first ruler over this region was a woman.


Iliff Robson 1933:
The harbour is spacious, circular, deep, and calm, but its entrance is narrow.
They called it, in the natives' language, »'The Ladies' Pool'«,
since a lady was the first sovereign of this district.

ladies harbor uitsnede.jpg
ladies harbor uitsnede.jpg (121.37 KiB) Viewed 120 times
ladies harbor map.jpg
ladies harbor map.jpg (657.6 KiB) Viewed 120 times
Oera Linda fragments

I. Settlement and residence at Indus delta

9e. The Geartmen Move to Panj-ab
[072] Therefore, we chose as our mother Geart, Pire’s daughter. (...) [073] Seekrops, who disdained murder and destruction, sent messengers to Geart, requesting surrender of the burg. She would be guaranteed free [074] passage, with all her floating and movable goods, and her followers the same. (...) Three months later, Geart evacuated with the very best children of Frya and seven times twelve ships. (...) At last they landed at ‘Panj-ab’,* which is in our language ‘Five Waters’, because five rivers flow from there as one down to the sea. Here they settled, naming the land ‘Geartmania’.
* ‘Panj-ab’ — Persian: panj (five), āb (water); this is the river Indus, not to be confused with the modern region Punjab, which is much further upstream (northwards).

14d. Alexander
[120] After we had lived at the Five Waters (Panj-ab) for twelve hundred and twice twelve years, in which our sea campaigners explored all seas in the region, came Alexander the king with a mighty army, moving downstream along the river towards our villages.

II. Descriptions of seaports

9d. Jon and Minerva Resettle
[069] (...) they found the mouth of a harbor there. (...) But when they entered the haven, they found it was too small for all the ships.

16b.Friso: Alliances
[148] Friso finally asked if they had not a good harbor in their region: “Oh yes,” [149] they answered, “one of the best, created by Wralda. It is just like your beer jar over there; the neck is narrow and the belly can easily harbor thousands of large boats.
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Re: Macedonia, Troy, Sparta and names in Arrian's Indica

Post by Pax »

Very nice finds. I find it a little funny that it was locally called the Womens'/Ladies' Harbour, since the locals found the idea of a woman (burg maiden, folk mother) ruling in any capacity to be unheard of. Probably also referred to the maidens in the burg.

The connection to GÁRANE makes a lot of sense. In Danish and German, the word only survives in the noun Garn (yarn), whereas Dutch and English still have the verbs garen and garner.

An alternative etymology for Troy would be THÍR, which I suggested in Kraft's thread. That way it would follow the pattern of various other places being named after THÍR in the Mediterranean.
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Re: Macedonia, Troy, Sparta and names in Arrian's Indica

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Arrian, Indica, chapter 21
§[2] Στοῦρα δὲ οὔνομα ἦν τῷ χώρῳ
§[3] Καύμαρα δὲ οὔνομα ἦν τῷ χώρῳ

Hammond Atkinson 2013:
[2] They moved out from the docks and on the first day came to anchor in the river Indus by a large canal, and stayed there for two days: the place was called Stura, about ten miles from the docks.
[3] On the third day they set out again and sailed three miles to another canal, which by now was salt, as the sea reached up to it, especially at high tide, and even on the ebb salt water stayed there, mixed with the river: the place was called Caumana.

Mooij-Valk 1999 (Dutch):
[2] De plaats heette Stoura
[3] Die plaats heette Kaumana

Iliff Robson 1933:
[2] the district was called Stura
[3] This place was called Caumara.

Why more recent translators wrote Caumana/Kaumana (with 'n' instead of 'r') is not clear to me yet, but they will have had good reasons.

These names make perfect sense from an Oera Linda (Fryas) point of view:

In the first settlement/region the seafarers/ navigators/ steersmen (STJURAR) will have lived and in the second, the traders (KÁPMANNA/ KÁPLJUD; Dutch/ German: koopmannen/ Kaufmänner), and the Fryas settlers indeed lived west of the Indus.

Oera Linda fragments (selection)

4c. Useful Precedents
[030] If a foreign trader (KÁPMAN) comes to the open market at Wieringen or Almanland

7a. Before the Bad Times
[048] Furthermore, our navigators and traders (STJURAR ÀND KÁPLJUD) had many warehouses in the Near Greeklands and in Lydia.

16b. Friso: Alliances
[148] The trader (KÁPMAN) who had been sent with them wished to buy new ships from us.

16g. Liudgeart: Panj-ab Report
[164] When they arrived here, our ancestors settled on both shores of the Panj-ab. But because of the priests, the settlers on the eastern shore later moved likewise to the western shore.
[167] On the west side of Panj-ab (Indus), whence we come and where I was born (...)

On this fragment of a map based on Alexander's voyage by Ortelius (ca. 1608), Stura and Caumana are highlighted, as well as the ‘Women’s Harbour’ of the previous post.
Ortelius Stura Caumana.jpg
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Re: Macedonia, Troy, Sparta and names in Arrian's Indica

Post by Pax »

Excellent finds.

The later translators probably corrected the names because they, too, saw the clear alignment with the historical place names such as those in Ortelius' map, whereas the early translators faithfully kept the typos. Not unlike how we have corrected some names in the OLB transcription when we could see that the author clearly referred to a certain person, place etc. but misspelt the name.

Aside, but seeing the region of Arriana/Ariana on the map made me think that it could probably explain the demonym “Aryan”: perhaps some of the Geartmen or some of Alexander's settling soldiers came to be associated with that region, since they were so different from the local population, like how people tend to name a group after their area (e.g. low marks → Danes, mountain slopes → Hellingers). Thus these Geartmen or Greek soldiers became known locally as the “Arriana-dwellers”, or simply Arians/Aryans.
Last edited by Pax on 06 Jul 2024, 10:58, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Corrected my argument
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Re: Macedonia, Troy, Sparta and names in Arrian's Indica

Post by ott »

This fragment from Arrian's Indica (chapter 25 [4-5]) reminds of Oera Linda, at the end of ch. 16g. Liudgeart: Panj-ab Report:

translation Hammond Atkinson 2013:
[4] Nearchus notes that when they were sailing along Indian land
(...) their shadows did not fall consistently.

[5] When they were at sea on a broadly southerly course,
they could see their shadows also falling to the south:
but when the sun reached midday, everything they saw was shadowless.*


*Nearchus probably did not witness this (or the setting of the stars) himself as he was way to the north of the Tropic of Cancer, and this was way after the summer solstice. In fact Arrian’s wording allows the interpretation that Nearchus was reporting what he had learnt from traders who worked along the west coast of India, and there may also be the echo of Herodotus 4.41.4. It is quite credible that Nearchus included observations that might be of use to navigators.

Codex Oera Linda [168/07]:
HWERSA THA DÉGA VPPA SIN ALDERLÔNGSTE SEND
ÀND THJU SVNNE FON TOP SKINTH.
THEN SKINTH HJU LINRJUCHT [10] VPPA JOW HOLE DEL.
IS MÀN THEN MITH SIN SKIP ÉL FÉR SÛDLIK FÁREN
ÀND MÀN THES MIDDÉIS MITH SIN GELÁT NÉI​.T ÁSTEN KÉRED.
SÁ SKINTH SVNNE ÀJEN THINE WINSTERE SÍDE
LIK HJU OWERS ÀJEN THINE [15] FÉRE SÍDE DVATH.


When the days are at the longest
and the sun is at its highest point,
it shines down sheer upon your head.
If you have then sailed far to the south by ship,
and turn your face to the east at midday,
the sun shines upon your left side,
as it otherwise does upon your right.
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Re: Macedonia, Troy, Sparta and names in Arrian's Indica

Post by ott »

Pax wrote: 05 Jul 2024, 10:39... the locals found the idea of a woman (...) ruling in any capacity to be unheard of.
Locals may have believed the name was based on a myth.
Pax wrote: 05 Jul 2024, 10:39An alternative etymology for Troy would be THÍR (...)
TROW(A) (loyalty, trust) is more similar and makes sense as a name for a settlement. I will only suggest possible etymologies for toponyms if they make sense. There is also Siarant, also on the westbank of the Indus, which would make sense as
SJARAND
, gerund of verb SJARA(NE): to adorn.

Fragments
[078] KNÁPA THAM HJARASELVA MITH RUMA RIKA KLÁTHAR SJARADON
young men who adorned themselves with flamboyant clothing
[094] MITH ALLERLÉJA BLOMMA WÉRON HJA SJARAD
They were adorned with many different flowers
[110] LOTHUM. HUSA ÀND GÁRDUM. ELLA RIKLIK SJARAD
barns, houses, and gardens — all richly ornamented
[111] THA MAN'GÉRTNE MITH GOLDEN KRONUM VPPIR HOLUM ÀND MITH HRINGUM OM ÀRMA ÀND FÉT SJARAD
the girls were adorned with golden crowns upon their heads, with rings around their arms and ankles
[137] VMBE JOW MAN'GÉRTA ÀND WIVA TO SJARANE. SÉID​.ER JÉVATH HJARA RINSTRÁMA ENOCH
“To adorn your girls and women,” he said, “her rivers provide enough.”
(related: SÍRHÉD)
Persia-Siarant-Indus.jpg
Persia-Siarant-Indus.jpg (277.53 KiB) Viewed 90 times
1596 Siarant west v Indus.jpg
1596 Siarant west v Indus.jpg (581.9 KiB) Viewed 90 times
Pax wrote: 05 Jul 2024, 17:02The later translators probably corrected the names because they, too, saw the clear alignment with the historical place names such as those in Ortelius' map (...)etc. but misspelt the name.
I later read Arrian's Indica survived in more than one manuscript. These have more recently been compared and studied. Note that Ortelius' map was partly based on Arrian's Anabasis and Indica.
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Re: Macedonia, Troy, Sparta and names in Arrian's Indica

Post by Pax »

ott wrote: 06 Jul 2024, 08:00Locals may have believed the name was based on a myth.
Perhaps later generations or even Nearchus or Arrian believed so, since they were not personally around when the Geartmen arrived. But I find it likely that the name began as a nickname made by contemporary Indian traders and princes who described the most unusual or infamous part about this new settlement, namely the role of the folk mother (Geart?) and maidens in the burg. In other words, Portus Mulierum began as an exonym.
ott wrote: 06 Jul 2024, 08:00TROW(A) (loyalty, trust) is more similar and makes sense as a name for a settlement.
I agree that is a good etymology. At the same time, I find it useful also to consider possible etymologies where implied sound changes have occurred. For example, Nordic suggested that Toroni was named after THÍR, but if that connection had not been made, one could link the name to TORE (tower), which on the surface seems like a plausible etymology, since each burg had an observatory.
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