Witches and Saints, part 1

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PýrKlépsas
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Joined: 01 Jan 2023, 17:44

Witches and Saints, part 1

Post by PýrKlépsas »

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OL 2b. 006 WR.ALDA THAM ALLÉNA GOD ÀND ÉVG IS. MAKADE T.ANFANG.
Wralda, who alone is whole and eternal, created the potential.

OL 2f. 014 FOLGATH J MIN RÉD THÀN SKIL HJU NÉMELS MIN FÁM BILÍWA ÀND ALLA FRANA FÁMNA THÉR HJA FOLGJA.
If you follow my advice, then she (FÀSTA) will remain my maid, along with all devout maidens who follow her.
THAN SKIL THJU FODDIK NÀMER UTGA THÉR IK FÁR JO VPSTOKEN HÀV.
Then the Lamp that I have lit for you will never go out.
THÀT LJUCHT THÉRA. SKIL THAN ÉVG JVWE BRYN VPKLARJA. ÀND J SKILUN THAN ÉVIN FRY BILYVA FON VNFRYA WELD AS JVWA SWITE RINSTRAMA FON THÀT SALTE WÉTER THÉR ÀNDELÁSE SÉ.
Its light will forever illuminate your mind and you shall remain as free from domination as your sweet rivers are free from the brine of the endless sea.

OL 4e. 032 WARTH WÉTER VRSTOREN SA WARTH.ET VN.ÉWA. VNRJUCHT. MEN.ET NÍGTH ÉVG VMBE WITHER ÉWA TO WERTHANDE.
When water is disturbed, it becomes uneven. Unlevel. But it always has a tendency to become even again.
THAT LÉITH AN SIN FONSELV.HÉD. ALSA THA NÍGUNG TO RJUCHT ÀND FRYDOM IN FRYA.S BERN LÉITH.
That lies in its nature, just as the inclination towards justice and freedom exists in Frya’s children.
THESSA NIGUNG HÀVATH WI TRVCH WR.ALDA.S GÁST. VSA FODER. THÉR IN FRYAS BERN BOGTH THÉRVMBE SKIL HJU VS ÁK ÉVG BIKLÍWA.
We derive this disposition from our feeder — Wralda’s spirit — which speaks strongly in Frya’s children, and shall thus remain with us eternally.
ÉWA. IS ÁK THET ÔRA SINNA.BYLD FON WR.ALDA.S GÁST. THÉR ÉVG RJUCHT ÀND VN.FORSTOREN. BILIWATH AFSKÉN.ET AN SIN LICHÉME ÀRG TO GÉIT.
Aewa is also the other symbol of Wralda’s spirit, which abides in us eternally, even and undisturbed, despite the hardships facing the physical body.

OL 6. 045 HWÀT HIR BOPPA STÀT SIND THI TÉKNA FON THÀT JOL. THAT IS THÀT FORMA SINNEBILD WR.ALDA.S. AK FON T.ÁNFANG JEFTHA T.BIJIN WÉRUT TID KÉM.
Depicted above are the signs of the Yule, which is the primal symbol of Wralda and of the Potential or the Beginning, from which came Time,
THÀT IS THENE KRODER THÉR ÉVG MITH THÀT JOL MOT OMMEHLÁPE.
the Carrier, that must turn around forever with the Yule.
...
T.IS HÉRVMBE NAVT TO DROK THAT WI.R JÉRLIKS ÉNIS FÉST VR FÍRJA.
It is, therefore, well justified that we celebrate the Yule every year.
WY MÜGON WRALDA ÉVG THANK TOWYA THÀT HI SIN GÁST SA HERDE INVR VSA ÉTHLA HETH FÁRA LÉTA.
It is fitting for us to give eternal thanks to Wralda for imbuing our ancestors so deeply with his spirit.

OL 13e. 098 WR.ALDA IS ELLA IN ELLA. HWAND THET IS ÉVG ÀND VN.ENDLIK.
Wralda is all in all, for he is eternal and infinite.
...
WR.ALDA LÉIDE ÉVGE SETMA THET IS ÉWA IN ALET ESKÉPNE
Wralda set eternal principles or ‘aewa’ into all that was created, ...

OL 13f. 101 WRALDA IS ALSA ÉVG ÀND HI IS VNENDELIK. THERVMB NIS THÉR NAWET BUTA HIM.
(Thus,) Wralda is eternal and he is infinite, and therefore, nothing exists outside of him.

OL 16e. 158 THÁ WR.ALDA BERN JEF ANTHA MODERA FON THÀT MÀNNISKELIK SLACHTE THÁ LÉIDER ÉNE TÁLE IN ALLER TONGA ÀND VP ALLER LIPPA.
“When Wralda gave children to the mothers of mankind, he laid one language in all tongues and on all lips.
THJUS MÉIDE HÉDE WR.ALDA ANTHA MÀNNISKA JÉVEN. TILTHJU HJA MÀNLIKÔTHERA THÉRMITH MACHTE KÀNBER MÁKJA. HWAT MAN FORMÍDE MOT ÀND HWAT MÀN BIJAGJA MOT VMBE SÉLIGHÉD TO FINDANE ÀND SÉLIGHÉD TO HALDANE IN AL ÉVGHÉD.
This gift Wralda bestowed upon men to be used for letting each other know what must be avoided and what must be pursued to find happiness and hold it for eternity.

-----------------

This goddess of the turret-crown and of many breasts, whose shrine required the attendance of the Megabyzi, is certainly a form of Cybele. If we were guided solely by the remark of Pausanias that the sanctuary was founded by the pre-Ionic people of the region, that is, by Leleges and Lydians, among whom the latter were more numerous, we should expect to find the Lydian Mother worshipped here. The name Artemis, under which the goddess appears, indicates that the Greek colonists appropriated the cult which they found. The Lydian Mother was evidently identical with Magna Mater of Phrygia. Yet the Ephesian goddess, who is the Mother under the name Artemis, is in her cult image neither Cybele as we know her--whether under baetylic form or in the likeness of a matron - nor Hellenic Artemis. Artemidorus, the student of dreams, says that peculiar sanctity attached to a particular type which he defines as that of Artemis Ephesia, Artemis of Perge, and the goddess called Eleuthera among the Lycians. It is tempting to ascribe to the mysterious Leleges the differences which separate the type of Ephesia and the other two from Cybele.

All that Pausanias tells about these Leleges at Ephesus is that they were a branch of the Carians. Herodotus says that the Leleges were a people who in old times dwelt in the islands of the Aegean and were subject to Minos of Crete; that they were driven from their homes by the Dorians and Ionians, after which they took refuge in Caria and were named Carians. It seems reasonable to give weight to the remarks of Herodotus on this subject, since he was a Carian-born Ionian. We should infer then that the Leleges of Ephesus, whom Pausanias calls a branch of the Carians, were closely connected with the island-people who were once subject to Minos. Both Herodotus and Pausanias say that the Lycians were of Cretan origin. It is therefore not strange that at Ephesus and in Lycia the same type of goddess was worshipped. Tradition also connected Pamphylia with Crete, which may account for the presence of the type in Perge. An inscription which dates probably from about the third century B.C. gives direct evidence of association between Crete and Ephesian Artemis. It is the dedication of a votive offering: "To the Healer of diseases, to Apollo, Giver of Light to mortals, Eutyches has set up in votive offering (a statue of) the Cretan Lady of Ephesus, the Light-Bearer (ἄνασσαν Ἐφέσου Κρησίαν φαεσφόρον)." The inscription suggests the words from the Oedipus Rex: "Lyceian Lord, scatter, 1 pray thee, for our aid thine unconquerable darts from thy gold-twisted bowstring and with them the fire-bearing rays of Artemis with which she rusheth over the Lycian mountains." The Cretan Light-Bearer may easily be the fire-bearing Artemis of Lycia. The epithet Λύκειος used of Apollo gives the form Λυκεία for Artemis. An Artemis by this name was worshipped at Troezen. The local exegetes were unable to explain the application of the epithet. Therefore Pausanias conjectures that it means, either that Hippolytus had thus commemorated the extermination of wolves at Troezen, or that Λυκεία was a cult epithet among the Amazons, to whom Hippolytus was akin through his mother. It seems highly probable that Artemis Λυκεία was the goddess of Ephesus, Perge, and Lycia, who was known as the Cretan Lady of Ephesus.

Religious Cults Associated With the Amazons (1912) by Florence Mary Bennett, pages 34-36
https://www.sacred-texts.com/wmn/rca/rca04.htm#fn_171
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Helgiteut
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Re: Witches and Saints, part 1

Post by Helgiteut »

PýrKlépsas wrote: 01 Feb 2023, 22:06 agnes of rome.jpg
Though Agnus and Agnes may be themselves from the same origin as each other, I would not rush to lump them in with either "Hag" nor "Know". The following are accepted by mainstream scholars as from the same root.
Cnawen(Old English)
Ken (Scots)
Know (Modern English)
Gignosco (Greek)
Gnoscere (Latin)
Agnostic (Modern English, borrowed)
Kunnan (Dutch)
Können (German)
Cunnan (Old English)
Can (Modern English)

The first grounds for keeping them seperate is that knowledge is associated with loss of purity. Though this could be simply a late Christian understanding (See the Bible where "knowing" often means to have sex) Cant (Archaic English) may refer to sharpness and acuteness, something which draws the eye. In that sense Agnes could indeed be related, in that something pure has not lost it's edge.

Scholars of Indo-European see the following as cognates of Hagnos, all relating to sacrifice. Iv'e only included attested words from known languages, thus I removed any proto-language words from this list:

Sanskrit: अयाट् (áyāṭ), अयष्ट (áyaṣṭa)
Ancient Greek: ἅζομαι (házomai)
Latin: ieientō, ientō (“to have breakfast”) (see there for further descendants)
Ancient Greek: ἁγνός (hagnós)
Sanskrit: यजुस् (yájus, “veneration, worship, sacerdotal formula”)
Ancient Greek: ἅγιος (hágios)
Sanskrit: यज्यु (yájyu, “worshipping, devout; worthy of worship, adorable”)
Latin: iaiūnus, ieiūnus (“fasting, abstinent”) (see there for further descendants)

Source
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... 1ya%C7%B5-

Now I don't "hold much stock" in what etymologists have come up with as regards to Proto-Indo-European, but seeing the meanings of these words, I would have Hagnos as meaning "purity, worthiness to offer-up, holiness, seperatness"
Grimm's law lay down how words change over time, by comparing the pronunciation of words in different languages. Think of Father and Pater. The trap of taking similar sounding words from different languages is that they could be accidental. If "father" is english, and "PATER" is latin, if "fish" is English, "PISCVS" Latin, then from these we gather that English "F" and Latin "P" correspond to each other. In the "same vein", Greek "Gn" corresponds to English "Kn". Latin "C" corresponds to English "H" (Canine--->Hound) Forgive me if this seems to be a lecture, I myself am hardly in the place to lecture. But I am frustrated by the common "mistakes" of cognates between words without further thought as to the relationship of the languages that they come from.
As for Hag, the cognates are Hex in German and Heks in Dutch. Though any further origin is unkown. Because I know you are following Ior Bocks understanding, the following is a quote on the Hex (Six), and therefore where Hag would most likely have come from.

According to Ior Bock, the female side of his family featured Gumman-Ella, the retired Svan with her seven daughters. The seven daughters, or Dotters, created stories for the circus on the continuation of the global family structure. These stories were all set in the future. The stories or narratives they created, were then transferred to the Nar and Sienare in the Ringlands and acted out by Kar-actors (“characters”) in the circus. The oldest of the seven sisters was Maija, the queen. The other six were called Hexor, or Bal-Häxor in Root, or Noita in Van. The stories were called Tarinoita in Van which translates as: Tar-i = “female”, Noita = “Hex” or “witch”. The Hexor were very knowledgeable on brewing teas from different herbs and their effects on the human body and mind. They were involved involved in mathematics, studied astrology, played a major role in the sciences and the spread of information and inspiration around the world.
Borgen, Carl. The Bock Saga: An introduction (p. 205). Kindle Edition.
Brea, bûter en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk
PýrKlépsas
Posts: 34
Joined: 01 Jan 2023, 17:44

Re: Witches and Saints, part 1

Post by PýrKlépsas »

Hello Helgiteut!

I want to keep myself quite busy with translating the OL to finnish, so I have to come back to you later. Thank you for the questions - for they seem reasonable. I'm thinking of answering to your points within the part 2, because you touched many important topics.

I'm also glad to see that you are reading the book by Carl Borgen. It is quite good. Concerning some of your questions I'd advice to read the chapter The Root and Van languages in the Bock Saga, page 206 (I don't know if the kindle-edition's layout is the same as with my physical copy).

I want to make couple points about what you said:
Helgiteut wrote: 02 Feb 2023, 03:52 Because I know you are following Ior Bocks understanding, the following is a quote on the Hex (Six), and therefore where Hag would most likely have come from.
It is not that simple, as you can see here → https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/akka#Finnish

One could say that Akka has an etymological connection in the manner, such as, this source is providing, but there is a problem: neither Akka nor Hag relates to witches in everyday usage, it simply means 'old woman', so I can't see them being connected to 6 younger daughters of Bal Gumman Ella. You don't have to be a witch to be an old woman, nor old woman to be a witch. This way I can't see Hag connecting to Hex (Note: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hexagonum#Latin).

Card-games used to be banned in some parts of the world in the middle ages:
Queen of hearts = hertta-akka
Pack of cards = korttip-akka(***)
To separate the wheat from the chaff (to select only that which is of value, idiomatic)*
= ''erottaa jyvät** akanoista''***

* https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/erottaa_jyvät_akanoista
** Jyvät, the wheat (seeds) ; hyvät, the good ones (think about christian symbolism)
*** Aka-noista, chaff ; ↻ noita-akka****, ''old witch'' (or, ''those akka-ones''*****) - compare → pakana, pagan
**** https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/noita-akka#Finnish
***** nuo, noista, noita: https://fi.wiktionary.org/wiki/nuo#Taivutus

Further:
The motif and symbol of the Finnish-speaking aapinen* has traditionally appeared as an aapis*-kukko**
Source: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aapinen (Translated with Mircosoft Edge)
* ''ABC's''(-book)
** K-ukko, as in (K)ukko Väinämöinen - ''Ukko'' meaning old man

Aka-temia, academy
Helgiteut wrote: 02 Feb 2023, 03:52 Though any further origin is unkown.
I want to tell you something. Finnish mainstream claims that Mikael Agricola himself created the (((Finnish))) language out of thin air, inventing over 60% of all words when he translated the Bible to finnish, and we were all wild-people living in the swamps. So here's one reason why many origins may be 'unknown', because 'if it is not written down, it is not true'.

For deeper knowledge about this part 1, I may recommend to (re-)read these chapters from Carl Borgens book (pages 34-38):
Departing from Ättestupa
Ashtree, Askträdet, Yggdrasil

Gumman Ellas name ''Ella'' means ''elämä'', life ; ''elää'', to live → leaf, from where the fylgior leaves* to Valhalla.

* Examples:
Movies ('moving pictures') = elokuvat - elävät kuvat ('living pictures')
Eloku(vat) → ''Elokuu'' (Living-month) = August (Agnes?) ;)

Here are couple videos also, hope they are of help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpyE9c8kTA4&t=6509s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP3zGCJdCrQ&t=6896s

Thank you!
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Nordic
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Re: Witches and Saints, part 1

Post by Nordic »

Interesting find that Megabyzi and the comparison to the Galli priests famous also from the Oera Linda narrative ("The Megabyzi were held in the highest possible honour, as were the Galli at Pessinus").

Not sure who are the first Amazons mentioned in the Turkish temple story. Medieval Amazons in Europe were specifically the Baltic Sea Finns, as seen in Adam of Bremen's description (where Kainuu or Kvenland ↔ Terra Feminarum and Amazons) and Al-Idrisi's Tabula Rogeriana map where these same Amazons and Maguses dwell in the same Baltic Sea Finnish lands (the latter just as in Oera Linda book).

If we go back in time these Amazons are found archeologically from southern Russian lands. What was their exact ethnicity is an open question as the same stretch of land was inhabited by various times by Goths, Slavs, Saka-Scythians, Budini, Russian-Finnish peoples etc. Modern academics favour an Iranian or Persian related ancestry, but it may be relevant here that the Gothic nations claimed them as their ancestors, as seen in Jordanes' Gotica. Gotland island foundation legend called Gutasaga claims ancient Goths in Greek lands, which may tie into Jordanes' account. Furthermore both Frisians (Oera Linda book) and Finns (Bock family saga) claim at least some sort of passing tribal or visiting diplomatic presence in ancient Levant. Not sure if the story of Hyperborean maidens visiting those lands is again of the same root story.
Helgiteut wrote: 02 Feb 2023, 03:52Think of Father and Pater. The trap of taking similar sounding words from different languages is that they could be accidental. If "father" is english, and "PATER" is latin, if "fish" is English, "PISCVS" Latin, then from these we gather that English "F" and Latin "P" correspond to each other. In the "same vein", Greek "Gn" corresponds to English "Kn". Latin "C" corresponds to English "H" (Canine--->Hound)
These are all good examples, thanks for sharing. This is the way the language science ought to be taught.

The Akka story was also known to Romans as Acca Larentia, to Hindus as Akka Mahadevi and to Norse of Nafnaþulur as akka 'arrow/shaft' (Finnish language loan therein, based on archetype of Akka of SKVR poetry and Bock family saga as witch-mistress and concept of a witches' arrow: this is paralleled by the Norse-Finnish Laufey-Louhi or Akka match). Bock family saga says the Germanic name for same character is Ella, which seems to be the source of Norse Elli (from Finnish past tense verb eli 'lived', verb root form elää 'to live'; Germanic live, leva, life etc are related words). All of this is in big picture comparable with Oera Linda worldview where ancient Northern European peoples move long distances, dwell in afar places and thus could influence the languages and myths therein.
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