Rosemunde, Minerva-Nyhellenia, Syrhed-Kelta

both within OL texts as in relation to other traditions
Post Reply
User avatar
Nordic
Posts: 55
Joined: 31 Dec 2022, 11:08

Rosemunde, Minerva-Nyhellenia, Syrhed-Kelta

Post by Nordic »

Here we have good example of OL characters and narratives found also from elsewhere. OL 062-063, 066-068 on castle-maidens:
In the last will of the deceased mother, Rosamunde was named first, Minerva second, and Syrhed third in line of sucession. [...] Secretly, she [Syrhed-Kelta] invited Magyars [Finns] to come and teach her sorcery, and when she had had enough of that, she threw herself into the arms of the Gools [Galli]. [...] In those times, Rosamunde — that is, ‘Rose-mouth’— was mother. [...]Kelta, who allegedly could walk as easily on water as on land, went to the mainland and on to Massilia. [...] From this burg she [Syrhed-Kelta] ruled like a legitimate mother, not for, but over her followers, who thenceforth named themselves Kelts.
Rosamunde the Rose-mouth survived as Rosmerta.
Minerva Nyhellenia gave us the Minerva or Pallas Athene, but more specifically Nehalennia.
Syrhed-Kelta the Germanic proto-Celt I do not know of, though her name is ancient Germanic Freyjan (Fryan) name Syr or Syritha (source, more here, name Syrhed ↔ name Syritha). The story about her studying sorcery under the Finns survived in the Celtic lore about the Tuatha Dé Danann or aes sídhe studying sorcery in northern islands:
304. Thereafter the progeny of Bethach s. Iarbonel the Soothsayer s. Nemed were in the northern islands of the world, learning druidry and knowledge and prophecy and magic, till they were expert in the arts of pagan cunning.

305. There were four cities in which they were acquiring knowledge and science and diabolism: these are their names, Failias [Falun, Sweden], Goirias [Górr's island dominions?], Findias [Fyn, Denmark or Finland], Muirias [Mora, Sweden]. From Failias was brought the Lia Fail which is in Temair, and which used to utter a cry under every king that should take Ireland. From Goirias was brought the spear which Lug had: battle would never go against him who had it in hand. From Findias was brought the sword of Nuadu: no man would escape from it; when it was drawn from its battle-scabbard, there was no resisting it. From Muirias was brought the cauldron of The Dagda ; no company would go from it unsatisfied. There were four sages in those cities: Morfesa, who was in Failias, Esrus in Goirias, Usicias in Findias, Semias in Muirias. Those are the four poets, with whom the Tuatha De Danann acquired knowledge and science.

306. So that they were the Tuatha De Danand who came to Ireland. [Or: Thereafter the Tuatha De Danann came into Ireland.]

[Source: Lebor gabála Érenn IV, ch. 304-306]
In context needs to be noted that OL, Norse sagas and other sources (including ancient DNA evidence e.g. "Finnish-like ancestry in the westernmost fringes of Europe [...] defying modern historical groupings") puts Finns much closer to Frisians into western Germany (e.g. OL MS 001), Danish islands (Fundinn Noregr) and Scandinavia (Frá Fornjóti) than is apparent from modern-day maps. The main Finnish magus battling Wodin is a Sweden-Finnish king Gylfa in Norse saga accounts (Ynglingasaga ch. 5, Frá Fornjóti). Thus there is no contradiction with allegation of Finnish influence in Danish-Scandinavian geographical locales.

Fornjót kings and other Norse saga characters survived into later Christian medieval and renaissance era demon lore where the old kings were turned into spirit or demon lords e.g. Fornjót ↔ Forneus/Formione, Väinämöinen ↔ Vine, Búre ↔ Buer, Guse ↔ Gusion etc. One of these characters is Morax or the Mora/Muirias above, representing another echo of the same core story. Most famous sorcerer or druid was of course druid Jesus who famously walked on water. While not the main topic here, it needs to be noted here in context that there are Nordic and papal traditions about Jesus being of Finnish roots (source retold by an American reteller, Norse saga echo based on same Jesus' adventures in India, pope Innocent III on the same story, see image here). This can perhaps again suggest larger backdrop to such feat in OL and Jesus narratives plus that pre-Celtic Tuatha Dé Danann or aes sídhe ↔ OL Kelta Frisians with perhaps the names based on the story of Frisians as an offshoot of Dan line via Aser or Æsir (more here).
Last edited by Nordic on 18 Jan 2023, 11:52, edited 3 times in total.
johannes
Posts: 6
Joined: 02 Jan 2023, 07:41

Re: Rosemunde, Minerva-Nyhellenia, Syrhed-Kelta

Post by johannes »

Yes She is in the region we live in, most interesingly this is.
When I come accros something I will post it.
There has been a temel made honouring her https://www.nehalenniatempel.nl/over-nehalennia/

Nehalennia (spelled variously) is a goddess of unclear origin, perhaps Germanic or Celtic. She is attested on and depicted upon numerous votive altars discovered around what is now the province of Zeeland, the Netherlands, where the Schelde River flowed into the North Sea. Worship of Nehalennia dates back at least to the 2nd century BC, and veneration of the goddess continued to flourish in northern Europe in the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD.
User avatar
Nordic
Posts: 55
Joined: 31 Dec 2022, 11:08

Re: Rosemunde, Minerva-Nyhellenia, Syrhed-Kelta

Post by Nordic »

Excellent link on the Nehalennia, thank you!
Helena
Posts: 9
Joined: 05 Jan 2023, 22:00

Re: Rosemunde, Minerva-Nyhellenia, Syrhed-Kelta

Post by Helena »

Hello I’m Helena from Zeeland and I wanted to share some things, but my post dissapeared... I will try again later
Helena
Posts: 9
Joined: 05 Jan 2023, 22:00

Re: Rosemunde, Minerva-Nyhellenia, Syrhed-Kelta

Post by Helena »

The forerunner of Helen (of Troy) was Helen dendritis. This was a wise woman who gave her advise under a tree. The wise women of the past in numerous stories sat at wells, caves, and trees. Witch comes from (wit/weet) to know. So Helen was a wise woman of the tree. Druid comes from trowit (tree and wit (know). Some man (druids) replaced the women of the trees.
A well is a source, was there once sourcery based on ewa, by women of the trees? Became this sorcery, when it was not based on Ewa (by men)?

In different stories dissisions were made under a tree, the Frisians did this under the upstalboom, the Basques had the guernicatree, the Slavs had also such a tree, etc.
Helgiteut
Posts: 39
Joined: 31 Dec 2022, 13:48
Location: Melbourne, VIC

Re: Rosemunde, Minerva-Nyhellenia, Syrhed-Kelta

Post by Helgiteut »

Helena wrote: 01 Mar 2023, 21:03 The forerunner of Helen (of Troy) was Helen dendritis. This was a wise woman who gave her advise under a tree. The wise women of the past in numerous stories sat at wells, caves, and trees. Witch comes from (wit/weet) to know. So Helen was a wise woman of the tree.
Hello. It seems that the tale of Helen has her being hanged on the tree, in revenge for starting the war. i don't know if that would make her a goddess of trees, though I should compare her to other tree goddess' to make sure.

To start off with, the following is from wikipedia that I found when I searched hanged goddess:
Apanchomene (Ancient Greek: Ἀπαγχομένη) was in Greek mythology an epithet for the goddess Artemis that meant "the strangled goddess" or "she who hangs herself".[1] The origin of this name is thus related by Pausanias:[2] in the neighborhood of the town of Caphyae in Arcadia, in a place called Condylea, there was a sacred grove of Artemis Condyleatis. On one occasion when some boys were playing in this grove, they put a string around the goddess's statue, and said in their jokes they would strangle Artemis. Some of the inhabitants of Caphyae who found the boys engaged in their sport, stoned them to death.

After this occurrence, all the women of Caphyae had premature births, and all the children were brought dead into the world. This calamity did not cease until the boys were honorably buried, and an annual sacrifice to their manes was instituted in accordance with the command of an oracle of Apollo. The epithet of Condyleatis was then changed into Apanchomene.

Many modern scholars view this curious epithet as being related to Greek traditions where icons and puppets of a vegetation goddess would be hung in a tree (aiora).[3] Classics scholar Helen King however connects the myth to beliefs about female reproductive health, and points to signs of Artemis being an asexual goddess.[4][5]
Searching
Aiora
led me to this article from the Encyclopedia Brittanica:
Erigone, in Greek mythology, daughter of Icarius, the hero of the Attic deme (township) of Icaria. Her father, who had been taught by the god Dionysus to make wine, gave some to several shepherds, who became intoxicated. Their companions, thinking they had been poisoned, killed Icarius and buried him under a tree. Erigone, guided by her dog Maera, found his grave and hanged herself on the tree. Maera jumped into a well and drowned. Dionysus sent a plague on the land, and all the maidens of Athens, in a fit of madness, hanged themselves. Icarius, Erigone, and Maera were set among the stars as Boötes (or Arcturus), Virgo, and Procyon (Canis Minor, the Lesser Dog); to propitiate Icarius and Erigone, the festival called Aiora (the Swing) was instituted. During this festival various small images (Latin oscilla) were swung from trees, and offerings of fruit were made.
The Goddess Innana in her descent to the underworld, was also killed and hanged afterwards. And there is Wodan who hanged himself to gain the runes.
I hope I have been of some help, do know that I'm not aiming to shut down your train of thought.
Brea, bûter en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk
Helena
Posts: 9
Joined: 05 Jan 2023, 22:00

Re: Rosemunde, Minerva-Nyhellenia, Syrhed-Kelta

Post by Helena »

Thank you,
there are some new aspects you mentioned about specific religions. I knew of the concept in religions of the hanged god/godess on a tree.
What I was referring to is a concept before there were religions. Where later in time characters were based on in religion.
User avatar
Nordic
Posts: 55
Joined: 31 Dec 2022, 11:08

Re: Rosemunde, Minerva-Nyhellenia, Syrhed-Kelta

Post by Nordic »

Interesting talk here! There is a specific field of cultural studies that researches Levantine cultures before the Biblical (Jewish) times and they're adamant that in old age there were plenty of sacred trees, sacred groves, wives of chief gods and mortal female authorities. Memory of which all had been largely painted out of the picture by the creation of texts seen in Old Testament. Examples include the likes of female Moses (Moso, Morse), Hesperides garden nymphs with Ladon the apple guardian snake which got transformed into Eva and apple paradise story (name Hesperides ↔ word Paradise), Asherah the wife of pre-Biblical Yahweh (more here) and so on.

Norse saga echoes of a Finnish Helen-alike is discussed briefly here in the section marked by number 2. This association long predates the medieval Icelandic and Danish saga authors, for the assumption of Helen of Troy ↔ Hleidi, Gói plus Dioscuri Castor and Pollux ↔ Hrærekr and Siggeirr, Nórr and Górr are present already in antiquity's Greek translation of Phoenician Sanchuniathon. Which in turn is a squashed, confused account of OL's sinking of Adland, Finnish wars and Teunis' naval stories:
After these events Cronus surrounded his habitation with a wall, and founded Byblus, the first city of Phœnicia. Afterwards Cronus [time] having coneived a suspicion of his own brother Atlas [Aldland], by the advice of Hermes, threw him into a deep cavern in the earth, and buried him. At this time the descendants of the Dioscuri [Nórr, Górr], having built some light and other more complete ships, put to sea; and being cast away over against Mount Cassius, there consecrated a temple [Týr’s Burg, Sidon]. But the auxiliaries of Ilus, who is Cronus, were called Eloeim [Biblical Elohim, Sumerian Alulim], as it were, the allies of Cronus; being so called after Cronus.
(Source: Sanchuniathon)
Last edited by Nordic on 11 Mar 2023, 11:11, edited 2 times in total.
Helena
Posts: 9
Joined: 05 Jan 2023, 22:00

Re: Rosemunde, Minerva-Nyhellenia, Syrhed-Kelta

Post by Helena »

Thank you! I’ve found the books of D.M. Murdock very helpful in learning about comparatative religion. And I will also share a link of professor Annine van der Meer (she is an authority on the topic of godesses). https://www.annine-pansophia.nl/artikelen/
User avatar
Nordic
Posts: 55
Joined: 31 Dec 2022, 11:08

Re: Rosemunde, Minerva-Nyhellenia, Syrhed-Kelta

Post by Nordic »

Helena wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 23:33 Thank you! I’ve found the books of D.M. Murdock very helpful in learning about comparatative religion. And I will also share a link of professor Annine van der Meer (she is an authority on the topic of godesses). https://www.annine-pansophia.nl/artikelen/
Thanks for the suggestions! Of Murdock I had heard before, but not read any of her books (will have to check them out later on). Van der Meer was a new name for me. Her work seems interesting in light of OL cultural depictions at the end of stone age and beginning of bronze age at c. 2000 BC and the subsequent influx of other cultures. Issue of female goddesses and leaders is present heavily in likes of OL, Hervarar saga, Jordanes' Getica, Tacitus' Germania etc. In Hervarar saga descriptions we for example encounter Gothic female castle commanders going to battle, reminding to a degree of OL Frisian women who too can wield a sword blade and be burg-maidens (castle-maidens):
When these troops had assembled, they rode through the forest which was called Myrkvith [Mirkwood], and which separated the land of the Huns from that of the Goths. And when they emerged from the forest, they came upon a thickly inhabited country with level fields; and on these plains there was a fine fortress. It was under the command of Hervör, the sister of Angantyr and Hlöth, and Ormar, her foster-father was with her. They had been appointed to defend the land against the Hunnish host, and they had a large army there.

It happened one morning at sunrise that as Hervör was standing on the summit of a tower over the gate of the fortress, she looked southwards towards the forest, and saw clouds of dust arising from a great body of horse, by which the sun was hidden for a long time. Next she saw a gleam beneath the dust, as though she were gazing on a mass of gold—fair shields overlaid with gold, gilded helmets and white corslets. Then she perceived that it was the Hunnish host coming on in vast numbers. She descended hastily and called her trumpeter, and bade him sound the assembly.
Then said Hervör: "Take your weapons and arm for battle; and do thou, Ormar, ride against the Huns and offer them battle before the Southern Gate."
Ormar replied: "I will certainly take my shield and ride with the companies of the Goths. I will challenge the Huns and offer them battle before the Southern Gate." [...] Then Ormar rode back to the fortress, and found Hervör and all her host armed and ready. They rode forthwith out of the fort with all their host against the Huns, and a great battle began between them. But the Hunnish host was far superior in numbers, so that Hervör's troops began to suffer heavy losses; and in the end Hervör fell, and a great part of her army round about her. And when Ormar saw her fall, he fled with all those who still survived. Ormar rode day and night as fast as he could to King Angantyr in Arheimar. (Source: Hervarar Saga og Heiðreks)
More about the context here.
Post Reply