What is the relationship between the Fryans and the Aryan peoples?

[Wil Helm]

To conclude momentarily on
"What is the relationship between the Fryans and the Aryan peoples?"

For me:
Fryans seem to have come via Indus to Pungab when Vedic era started (approx 1500 BC)
But Vedic scriptures have all the imprints of a priestly scripture, the band the Fryans wanted to avoid and turned to Iran.
The priests at that moment were also called foreign by the Fryans.

Fryans didn't fought to settle, matches latest insight the Aryan invasion is corrected to 'migration'.
BUT seems we have to do with 'migration' in 2 steps (priests from North + Fryan Geertmanne from South)!
In between a parallel escape migration to Iran.

Maybe that is the problem with 'constructs' as Aryan.
On the otherhand Aryan is used in the Veda's as actual describing Arjuna's state.
He's an Aryan because of the fierce fight for Justice -> a warrior who opposes suppression (can imagine with Ire) opposed to the timid and following Hindoos.

Krsna said to Arjuna: "This is not for the Aryan. You are ksatriya, you are meant for fighting for justice, and you are denying to fight? Oh, this is not good. This kind of proposal, cowardice, can be proposed by the anarya

So Aryan isn't only a construct from the English?
And how can Fryans be Aryans if Veda priests are also part of that Aryan construct.

[half life over]

Besides the possible loss of pronounciation of the 'Ph' or 'F',
on written level there could also be confusion if the FR of FRYAN is placed without much space.

The F could be read as an A, with the back of the R to close the F.
FRYAN=ARYAN (in another lettertype

This is what I believe: the Indo-European language wasn't purely oral; it started out as a written language, which vastly influenced and changed how we speak. A prime example of this phenomenon is the contrast between 'mama' and 'mother.' The term 'mama' is present in almost every language except African and Australian Aboriginal languages. On the other hand, 'mother' was a later addition to the lexicon, likely spread through Fryan migration. Before this term became part of the lexicon, it was influenced by the written language.

When Freya created our written language, it significantly altered how we communicated. The original Aryan language was written, not solely oral.

[Nordic]

The pun about Iranians not being ireful follows the ancient standard practise of mostly understanding foreign people's names with the help of one's own language. We see this same in Nordic sources like Ynglingasaga or Bock family saga where the association between Asia and Æsir/Aser is made or how the Nordic sagas call the Mediterranean rulers by distinctively Norse language names while placing them in places like Alexandria or Heliopolis (some think the western Mediterranean Rasul 'moon-sun' peoples in Bock family saga are the Etruscan Rasenna people). So it might be the case of Frisians viewing the Asiatic peoples by their own language and not necessarily that the word Iranian really meant 'ireful' back then.

One hybrid possibility to explain that reference is that the ancient peoples were far more linguistically learned than we assume today and that a Germanic language pun on the words Iran-ireful would have thus been able to have been made and would thus not need a Germanic or Frisian native speaker to make a joke about. That kind of situation, widely understood languages, could explain why the odd reference.

An actual example of archaic usage of 'Aryan master' can be read here, detailing the Buddhist Aryan superman.

Also it has been previously pointed out by me or others that:
Aryan - Finnish orja 'slave'
Old Norse drengr 'warrior - Finnish renki 'serf, hired hand'
Old Norse Rigsþula Ái (lowest class man) - Finnish Äijä lit. 'old man' but also name for chief sky god
Old Norse Rigsþula Amma (middle class woman) - Finnish ämmä 'bitch'
Old Norse saga ruler titles are at times often oddly in seemingly Finnish spellings of the terms e.g. keisari for 'caesar' in Veraldar saga or are best retained in actual daily usage in Finland e.g. Skáldskaparmál's "Harri eða Herra" as Harri the common male name and herra 'mister, lord'.

In Bock family saga worldview the Aser (Æsir) rule their own holy land and everyone else belongs to the lands of the karls (earls), karls (as in e.g. huscarl) and träls (thralls), reminding here highly of the Norse Rigsþula wordview. All of this is called Karl-Jarl-a or Karjala 'Karelia', leaving out the lowest thrall class as unworthy of mention despite being the demographically largest portion of mankind in that wordview. In these understandings the term is not strictly limited to the current Finnish-Russian border region of Karelia, but refers to the whole of Eurasia after the end of the last ice age (allt land is 'all-land-ice' or simply Atlantis).

The Finnish saga specifically notes out of these terms came later words like 'Aryan' (arjalainen), which seems folklore wise to be backed by other traditions that kings titled Kári (Norse name for king Ilmarinen) used to rule over the Karelians (source here) and of the similar names Karl/Kari we have variations (source) of karilainen ('like Kári'), karjalainen (same, or 'Karelian') and arilainen ('like Ari' or variant spelling of arjalainen 'Aryan'). How historical this is understanding of king Kári ruling over the karls and jarls, is an another question and poses similar issues as with the Asia-Æsir question present in Norse sagas.

IorBock_1996_Bockinperheensaaga_pages80-81.png (80.99 KiB) Viewed 2642 times

[Wil Helm]

Interesting.

So it might be the case of Frisians viewing the Asiatic peoples by their own language and not necessarily that the word Iranian really meant 'ireful' back then.

Possible stand ... I assume you take this then also for the other "Indian" word associations.
Fi also Budha referring to purse, or Himalaya for way-to the heaven.

[Wil Helm]

Cecrops I (SÉKROPS in Oera Linda?) is also known as a 'mythological' fish-man. He is also said to have been the founder and the first king of Athens. Confusion with the actual founders (according to OL)?

Don't know if here is conclusion yet about etymology.
But for me it comes across as Zee-krops. A sprout (gewas, body, corps) from the sea.
A sea-body.
Remember the tale of Ulysse that in Athens they laughed with the sea 'monsters' (momma?, mamal?)

https://etymologie.nl/cgi/b/bib/bib-idx ... es;q1=krop

https://www.etymonline.com/word/crop

Makes me wonder about the connection with Latin "corpus".


Edit:
Drifting a bit more West of the topic, just one more comment on Cecrops and the loss of "P" pronounciation.
Sounds like Secros then. Alternating the r before or after syllables (corps, crops) and C as S, one can easily come to Sersos.
Xerxes or Sersos , both tales have
- an assault on Athens both by land (attack on the walls), as by sea.
- In times of Xerxes Persia ruled over Egypt.
- Xerxes/Cecrops were also told to avoid violence and prefer diplomacy
- After both's dead there was a decline

Only the years don't match and Cecrops is said to have founded Athens, while Xerxes is said to have sacked it.
Well, the dead of the old is the birth of the new

Edit²:

LOOK AT THIS!:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Pe ... _of_Greece
"Tetramnestos, King of Sidon, served as the chief advisor of Xerxes in naval matters.[88] In effect, the Sidon fleet held a position of primacy among the naval forces of the Achaemenid Empire at that time, providing the best ships in the fleet, even before the fleet of Artemisia of Halicarnassus or the Egyptians.[88] The Phoenicians furnished a fleet of 300 ships, "together with the Syrians of Palestine".[88]"

https://wiki.oeralinda.org/view/En_09e_The_Geartmen
"When Seekrops saw that he could not storm our wall with his men,[4] he sent messengers to Tyre. Thereupon, three hundred ships arrived full of mercenaries from the wild mountain peoples,[5] who unexpectedly sailed into our harbor while we were fighting with our full strength on the walls."

[Wil Helm]

Referring to the main topic "Chronology":

When piecing this together ...
I think Fomenko needs to read the OLB.
Was Xerxes Cecrops?

The grand Greek culture as we are told and celebrate that much, with their statues and myths,
is only the picture and result of the demise of a first (chased off and opposite) one, right before.

Taking milestones of the history of the first chased one, as their own beginning, hidden in mist and myths.
Roman/Greek culture is younger as thought, and lasted until recently by subsequent powerhouses (US hegemony as last Roma,-imperialisme). That first Athen culture left for India where they encountered likewise (Yren) and opposite cultures (Priests).

What they encountered:
Probably the result of the still earlier "Frysian" penetration via the Teunis-Tyrian-Persian (Cyrian) line eastwards, but than over land. Together with those nasty Egyptian-Persian-Findian-Christian? and even Northern prestera?
They are all the same everywhere you go.

Edit:
Like Jesus and Budha said: the holy scripture is easy and plain.
Nothing need to be added or left out (and INTER-PRETED!).
That's how you can distinguish priest from prophet (proef-heid, what is prooven).
It is the caste of Farizee's and Priests who think to be necessary to add and interprete the 'right' scripture for the people.
Example: what is a allowed on Sabbath day? What is working, what is not? It is up to the people, because sunday is the people's day where no obligation is attached. Do as you please, even if it takes some physical effort for your own good.

[ott]

LOOK AT THIS!:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Pe ... _of_Greece
"Tetramnestos, King of Sidon, served as the chief advisor of Xerxes in naval matters.[88] In effect, the Sidon fleet held a position of primacy among the naval forces of the Achaemenid Empire at that time, providing the best ships in the fleet, even before the fleet of Artemisia of Halicarnassus or the Egyptians.[88] The Phoenicians furnished a fleet of 300 ships, "together with the Syrians of Palestine".[88]"

https://wiki.oeralinda.org/view/En_09e_The_Geartmen
"When Seekrops saw that he could not storm our wall with his men,[4] he sent messengers to Tyre. Thereupon, three hundred ships arrived full of mercenaries from the wild mountain peoples,[5] who unexpectedly sailed into our harbor while we were fighting with our full strength on the walls."

This is indeed very interesting. Can you or someone else make a thorough analysis of the similarities and differences between both narratives?

[Wil Helm]

This is indeed very interesting. Can you or someone else make a thorough analysis of the similarities and differences between both narratives?

Hi Jan,
I had also the intention to make this gutfeeling more concrete for myself.
Will be glad to share, but life's occupation put me a bit in time constraints.
So I hoped Fomenko could do some preparations
Have to see when i'll can reserve the necessary time and focus for this.

One thing i can allready say, is that evenso with the more "classical" view on history, i have doubts about all absolute timings. Will incorporate that also.
Fi
it is for me beyond understanding how Frysians arrived at the scene in Punjab approx 1500 BC, and 1224 years after date ! went back with Alexander with full remembrance of their past arrival and language details at that moment.
If we look at the year 800. What can we say about how things went here, in what language, by what groups of people?
Must be mine inclination, but for me it would be more obvious if
- Geertman in Punjab (approx 1500 BC)
- Ulise (approx 1200 BC)
- Friso (approx 300 BC)
were cramped together in a much smaller timeinterval. I'm really thinking of some generations.
Approx 100-200 years in this case.

I think this smaller interval is general for all history, possible due to the change at some moment of full years as counting cycle, instead of the previous and more easy/obvious moon cycles. But also plain misunderstandings and false axioma's.
I'm not a believer in far away ancient and lost civilisations.
More a believer in a continues line, where our dating puts us on a wrong track.
Fi all those giant architectural buildings in Egypt, South America, India.
They all have all imprints of the art of pouring concrete and casting.
Hence the unbelievable fits and details en masse, which we think are carved.
"How did they do it?", we ask ourselves.
Well, they didn't carved it maybe.
"Impossible, stone pouring was not known at that moment".
Well, our moment is wrong maybe.

To be continued ...

[ott]

it is for me beyond understanding how Frysians arrived at the scene in Punjab approx 1500 BC, and 1224 years after date ! went back with Alexander with full remembrance of their past arrival and language details at that moment.

I agree that the timeframes (between Aldland sinking and Liko's letter) may actually be much shorter.

However, without the invading hostile force that has been dominant (and became ever more corrupted) during the last 1200 years, we might know much more (and our information would be more accurate) about this 'recent' past. (Who knows what an opening of the Vatican's secret archives would reveal...)

At the times of Adela, our race/culture was already in decline (in chapter 12, Adelbrost is clear about that). Then in Friso's times there was a bad time again and the large fleet brought many changes and conflicts.

How fast and drastic things changed over the last 1000 years may not be comparable to the intensity of change in the 1000 years before Adela.

(What doe 'fi' mean or were those typing errors?)

[Nordic]

Very interesting that ship similarity note. In light of other textual sources, I claim likewise that not only Atlantis and Aldland confused in antiquity, but also that the OL Scandinavian-Finnish and Trojan war situations that is perhaps best shown in later medieval era Norse saga literature. Thus what we have here might be evidence of narrative or textual loaning between similarly named historical characters (Xerxes and the older preceding Cecrops) and their war stories. Overall very good find Wil Helm!

The Wikipedia page summary on Cecrops is also quite good. It touches on several topics familiar to us from OL and likes of Bock family saga: gods for men, goddesses for women, equal right to vote between sexes (very Northern European in spirit), laymen marriage concept as later foreign import and finally the note on Cecrops' dual heritage that is if out of OL manuscript pages. The snake element is also present in likes of Gutasaga. Even likes of Typhon could be seen as cultural memories of similar figures (instead of let's say representation of natural phenomena).