The Oera Linda Forum

Myss I had the same thoughts years ago when I first initially stumbled onto the Oera Linda. I was researching the etymology of Uranus and found Jan's blog post on Wralda. I think the biggest issue the codex has and will face as it becomes more and more known is the cognitive dissonance it automatically creates. I assume nearly everyone who comes across the OL already had some love for myth, religious history, etc. Whatever soft spot you have - be it religion, anthropology, history, race, politics, the OL is sure to touch on. Even after I accepted the codex as an authentic record of history, it took me a while to reconcile the spiritual implications and the implications on ethnicity / race within Europe.
I have a feeling the longer you stay in the water the less cold it will feel, and you will come to realize the falsehoods it tears down only reveal more beautiful truths. So I hope you can get past the initial shock.

Out of every person I've told about the OL, those who I judge to have low levels of cognitive dissonance and abilities to accept harsh truths - none have come around to it. Not one. Many, if they can get past the Wikipedia page, shut down when the Frya's describe something they deem as important to their personal identity negatively. And even after all of this, there is more to go still with the chronology revision among other worldviews that nestle in with the book. The book cannot be evangelized, which I think is for the better. We must try and bring attention to it, and present it as honestly as possible and those opposed to it will naturally sift themselves out.

I had wondered recently just how many people have truly made this book a part of their lives. I was trying to do the math in my head. The number of people aware of the book is low, but luckily rising which I'd attribute to Jan's interviews and hopefully Bruce's channel. But still, the number of people who believe Wralda to be God without diluting their belief with norse mythology or christianity must be only a handful. We lucky few.

Coco wrote: ↑24 Oct 2024, 17:39 Myss, I beg your pardon for the personal remark, but your post evokes a sense of cognitive dissonance. It is possible that you possess a profound emotional connection to Norse Mythology

Yes, I knew this would be an inevitable retort. But it is illogical. And you might dislike my rambling style but I really want you to re-read what I've written to understand my perspective. I will try to reiterate for clarity even though I'm not always good at that. If you actually read the mythological stories you will see I'm not making this up, you can apply that logic and see the same patterns over and over and it speaks to something very intricate and multi-dimensional. You can attain several messages from the same basic story. Vegard Solheim wrote a lot about this and you might want to read his english translations or ask him directly.

And I want to give you this mental exercise. If Wr-alda was the original concept, why would it even be exclusive to anything else? Why, if our ancestors held freedom and the free flow of thoughts as one of the highest goods, would they never come up with anything else and hold it in such utter contempt? How do you know it wasn't just a specific cult? If you want to go deeper, whats the difference between reverence and worship? Doesn't every healthy human revere their ancestors? If your ancestors embody divine qualities, then how are they not part of the divine? If God and good is the same, surely he will understand that humans give human characterizations to the divine? If God is so great and good why would the other gods distract from him? Especially if he is so great that mere mortals cannot truly understand him? If Wr-alda is the same oneness concept as God in the bible, then you could go on and on for days with the same kind of questioning. It just doesn't hold up, its too simpleminded and like I said a copout. It doesn't compare to the intellectual capability of those ancient people. They understood the divine from something tangible, the world around them and inside them. In that sense the divine is very real and present, its not unknowable or nebulous. Like I said, the real world. From this naturalistic outset its also easy to understand why there is more evidence for the early skyfather and earth mother figures. I don't really see any evidence that all of our myths were invented by semitic priests, quite the opposite. I don't think using the OLB in this instance, in contradiction to everything else, is a good argument. And thats not me rejecting the idea that the whole book is real. Just a part of it. Its very easy to imagine that someone along the way could have edited parts of it, or even invented things and left the rest as-is. Where did you get the idea that druids and Gaul are semitic in origin, I'm assuming you're basing that on some sort of etymological comparison?

In my previous remarks, I did not assert that Norse Mythology was fabricated by priests; rather, the Eddas were presumably derived from oral traditions that underwent modification over time to incorporate deities. A similar process of embellishment is evident in the Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid, which are replete with deities despite being based on historical events. There is a possibility that Norse Mythology may also contain kernels of truth; for example, the war between the Æsir and the Vanir may be a metaphorical representation of a conflict between the Fryas and the Finns, as referenced in the Bock Saga. This subject has been discussed in other threads by Nordic and PýrKlépsas. However, since the OLB presents a clear and direct account, it is unnecessary to search for answers in mythology.

The Celtic question has been thoroughly examined in this thread.

Aldaric, yes I think the book should receive attention. I wasn't trying to say that the book can't be useful, but I don't automatically take it as gospel truth either. The floods for example make sense, you can reach that conclusion on your own that humanity would go through cyclical disasters and force people to start over. And we of course have a lot of stories like that in various myths. The idea that Frisians could have been in india isn't that crazy, we already know that eastern Aryans were there through genetics/archeology and the presence of the caste system etc. So it makes sense. But the religious idea, particularly to the complete exclusion of anything else, really doesn't. I still haven't received a good answer on why it would be like that.

Coco wrote: ↑25 Oct 2024, 14:07 Did you register for the forum with the intention of engaging in a debate with me?

No, I didn't. And whats with the ad hominem trying to portray me as a desperate person? Why don't you give me a better explanation for why Wr-alda is so great that he can tolerate no other, like some sort of spiteful desert god? Why would they believe in this?

underwent modification over time to incorporate deities thanks to the superstition of the people and the creativity of poets and priests

What makes it superstition, as opposed to an understanding of the natural world? Why, if the corrupted priests wanted people to believe in false gods would they then also claim that these gods are evil and people should turn to the one God which is actually closer to Wr-alda?

A thorough examination of mythological narratives requires meticulous scrutiny through layers of figurative expressions and symbolic metaphors to discern underlying historical truths.

Yes, thats kind of the point.

When the truth is presented with such clarity and simplicity, the cognitive maneuvers characteristic of content creators like Survive the Jive are rendered moot.

Except you didn't present the truth, you presented a theory. And thats exactly what it will remain as until we can have something more convincing to support it. Who wrote the part about the Finno-Magyars? How do we even ascertain what they are supposed to be? How is it mental gymnastics to ask these basic questions, without automatically assuming everything in it is true?

Indeed, one has the capacity to regard one's ancestors with esteem. The remarkable mothers and seafarers of the OLB merit respect; however, this does not equate to divinity. It is conceivable for individuals to be part of the divine, as evidenced by Wralda's spirit residing within us.

Ok great, but the distinction has not been made. It doesn't really seem like you understood my question. I don't think you even understand yourself here. How is Wr-alda solely legitimate, exclusive, ad infinitum etcetera? Whats the difference between this and the God in the bible? If humans can manifest the divine, how are they not divine themselves? And I'm not talking about the chosenite syndrome, it should be perfectly clear what I mean by now.

The Celtic question

Ok, but this is a rerun from the past I thought people were smart enough to solve by now.
Celts as allies of Phoenician Hannibal? They also often allied with the Romans.
Celts doing human sacrifice and keeping the heads? Human sacrifice is believed to have been a thing with both Germanic and Celtic people, but not in the way the church portrayed it. They sacrificed criminals and hated enemies. The heads were most likely skulls taken from the graves of their ancestors. Its a common theme that the skull is believed to contain the knowledge of the dead person and people would drink from skulls for the same reason.
Reports of Celtic kings having a ritualistic go with horse? There's different translations of the text, originally written by a christian priest. From a very powerful family no less. Supposedly a "good" one then? The Topographia Hibernica reads like the most over-the-top slander you could possibly find.
Why Celts are always in European south and the similarity of names "Gaul/Gallia" and "Galli" priests? This is not true at all. They occupied large parts of Europe but were particularly displaced/absorbed in Northern Europe by Germanic people, who are extremely similar genetically speaking. For the name comparison, you realize different words can look very similar while being completely unrelated right?
Why did Romans hate the Gauls and especially the Druids of Anglesey so much - almost as much as the Phoenicians? I don't see particularly why this would be true. The Romans weren't exactly strangers to slaughtering masses of people in the Imperial period. At least if the conflict between them and various European tribes is to be believed. How much of it is genuine hatred?
How come northern branch of Celts are seemingly pale white Nordics, yet are associated with Mediterranean? Who associates Celts with the mediterranean? The normal association is just that they inhabited large parts of Europe, the western, central AND southern part of it.
Why did the northern Celts have so lacking relations with their immediate Germanic neighbours? They... Didn't? Northern Europe has had intermarriage and relations between these two groups for a very long time. Their genetic distance is tiny. Vikings brought back masses of Celtic people who integrated into the Scandinavian society. Germans and Celts fought together against the Romans. And its true they are very similar in almost every way except culture, and even that isn't so different.

It is imperative to allocate additional time to thoroughly assimilate the OLB.

I can do this, but by the same token you should be able to point to something besides the OLB and actually answer me straight instead of implying I'm emotional and hysterical. Why should we reject everything we already know in favor of this (at best) shaky theory?

I don't automatically take it as gospel truth either.

I'm glad you don't. I don't think there is anyone insane enough to have taken it immediately as truth.

Whats the difference between this and the God in the bible?

Wralda isn't spiteful. He is above love and hate. His life facilitates existence and every function, movement, vibration draws upon his power. He isn't going to strike you down for not understanding him. In Frya's tex it says Wralda would help Finda's and Lyda's folk if we were to assail them first - despite their people not worshipping him.

You may not know this, but the abrahamic faiths are not technically monotheist, they are instead monolatrous. Acknowledgement of other gods is common in the Bible ("Let us make man in OUR image") - yahweh is even defeated by another god at one point (Chemosh, god of the Moabites). As Coco stated before the Fryas tradition is more in line with the platonic idea of God: the monad, or even a taoist interpretation.

Also the idea of Celtic languages being semitic was realized independently of the OL, it only proves it legitimacy even more. When it comes to sacrifice - the fact of the matter is that we have evidence of people being killed. Outside of the OL, there is no written source to explain it. This is the issue with todays study of history, we have built up these ideas forgetting if the foundation they lay on was solid or not.

Who associates Celts with the mediterranean?

Every racial anthropologist. Even today the general consensus is that the darker element is from neolithic farmers native to the isles who came from Anatolia (in Britain at least).

And its true they are very similar in almost every way except culture, and even that isn't so different.

Ask yourself this: If the 'nordic' and celt are so similar in every way, even inhabiting the same lands - why is there a cultural difference at all? it had to have come from some place, and the OL tells that story. Keep in mind also, a lot has happened genetically and culturally between these two groups since the initial war, if you apply your identities to it you will only let your feelings try and rewrite history. I am the typical identity-less American. I vaguely associated with the celts as many Americans do. When I first read the OL I cannot lie, I was offended. My idea of some homogenous ancient Europe was shattered.

Er Aldaric wrote: ↑25 Oct 2024, 05:03We lucky few.

One could argue that the ruling classes of old Germanic or Nordic peoples must have had traditions like these, as mere sagas (Ynglingasaga, Gylfaginning), SKVR poetry and folklore do not suffice to explain it all: return of Christmas trees, return of jöäå letters, separate u, v and w letters, return of original non-Roman 1234... numbers and so on. Luckily we have the likes of Getica, Historia Langobardorum, Oera Linda book and Bock saga.

Myss wrote: ↑25 Oct 2024, 10:48You can attain several messages from the same basic story. Vegard Solheim wrote a lot about this and you might want to read his english translations or ask him directly.

It's known to academics that likes of Norse sagas were likely told to a whole groups of adults and children at once, thus having both the literal explicit (child) and the symbolic implicit (adult) messages. Some of those stories encode also scientific knowledge, like returning Mjölnir as lightning strike back from earth (as noted by Maria Kvilhaug) or lunar cycles in exact days (in SKVR poetry).

Would you recommend Our Traditions as his best book on the topic?

Coco wrote: ↑24 Oct 2024, 17:39I have not delved into Plato's Laws and therefore must undertake the necessary research to ascertain the interconnection between OLB, Plato, and the Bible.

Head dive into that here, please.

Myss wrote: ↑25 Oct 2024, 10:48If Wr-alda was the original concept, why would it even be exclusive to anything else?

One could argue, based on Oera Linda book, that the very realistic (but not atheistic) take of OL Frisian culture, was that of the early Germanic peoples and those of north-western continental Europe especially. Not necessarily so much those of (eastern Ynglinga) Scandinavians, or later Viking era Norse.

Coco wrote: ↑25 Oct 2024, 14:07In contrast, the Oera Linda Book offers a more forthright account of the incursion of the Finns into "East Skenland," which is interpreted as either contemporary Finland or eastern Sweden, under the dominion of the Magyars.

The bolded part is the correct understanding as to influence, though the northern invasion went all the way to Gothenburg in southern Sweden (MS 052: "GODA.HIS.BURCH." > two Gutian armies > Gog and/of Magog).

Er Aldaric wrote: ↑25 Oct 2024, 23:22 Acknowledgement of other gods is common in the Bible

Also in veiled manner: Genesis 2:4 "heavens and the earth" < Ouranos, Gaia (noted by Russell Gmirkin); Job 37:21-24 " wind [...] Out of the north he comes in golden splendor" < Sakka (Indra) and Brahma of Mahāgovindasutta; Revelation 20:14 "death and Hades" < Thanatos, Hades.

Er Aldaric wrote: ↑25 Oct 2024, 23:22When I first read the OL I cannot lie, I was offended.

OL narrative is harsh on everyone.

Nordic wrote: ↑27 Oct 2024, 17:48 The bolded part is the correct understanding as to influence, though the northern invasion went all the way to Gothenburg in southern Sweden (MS 052: "GODA.HIS.BURCH." > two Gutian armies > Gog and/of Magog).

Pyrklepsas has previously discussed the relationship between ancient Swedish and Finnish bloodlines, concluding that the two are not significantly different. Could you please clarify if this is the reference you are referring to? Additionally, could you please explain the significance of the symbol ">" in the text?

Coco wrote: ↑28 Oct 2024, 11:55[...]the relationship between ancient Swedish and Finnish bloodlines, concluding that the two are not significantly different. Could you please clarify if this is the reference you are referring to?

Ynglinga saga is a Christian era re-telling of older Norse and Frisian materials on close connections between Swedish Ynglinga house and the Finns (there is also a textual relation to Rulers of Lagash: blacks in both beginnings, theme of canals, Gefion-Ezina, Laage-Lagaš, Denmark-Ninmarki). Furthermore, there have been educated guesses via DNA studies on historical Rurik's lineage, which is believed to be a stone age Finnish lineage that went from Finland to Sweden (here and here). This is fully in line with OL worldview, where 'east Scandinavians' aka Swedes go along with the Finns.

Coco wrote: ↑28 Oct 2024, 11:55Additionally, could you please explain the significance of the symbol ">" in the text?

How the narrative went:

• the original story of two Finnish armies of Górr (sea route) and Nórr (land route), their descendants fighting near Gothenburg and against Wodin of 7 years (Frá Fornjóti + Oera Linda book) became...

• ...the root source of Sumerian tales of two "Gutian" armies as divine punishment, battled by Utu-hegal of 7 years (Sumerian King List + ABC19 Weidner Chronicle), in turn became...

• ...the source of OT and NT Biblical tales of "Gog" and "Magog", with the same 7 years mentioned (NT Revelation) and role of Wodin taken by anti-Christ* ...

• ... directly or in-directly became the source of Hindu end-time characters Koka and Vikoka ('Gog', 'Magog').

* The role of his helper perhaps based on OL Magus. Norse saga Egils saga einhenda ok Ásmundar berserkjabana (ch. 13 or XIII) calls Odin of Undirheima 'underworld' a 'prince of darkness' (höfðingja myrkranna). There is also present Finnish king Snæ (Finnish: Niera) of Frá Fornjóti lineage that became the "Nahor" of OT Genesis and is the father of "THÍR" in OL (Finnish: Iku-Tiera son of Niera). Much later in late 1500s these Norse and Finnish lineage characters ended up in Reginald Scot's The Discoverie of Witchcraft as demon or spirit commanders.

The DNA page's discussion of the origin of the Rus, who subsequently became the Russians, makes mention of the region of Roslagen in Sweden as the point of origin. This assertion is further supported by the fact that the Finnish word "Routsi" translates to "Sweden." The passage in the Oera Linda Book that states "slave people (SLÁVONA FOLKA) tread on your gown, O Frya" could potentially be interpreted as referring to "Slavic people." It is possible that it is an exonym, akin to the term "Finn" (meaning "fine").

Concerning Magog, Alewyn J. Raubenheimer proposes in Chronicles From Pre-Celtic Europe (page 252) that the Land of Magog mentioned in the OT Book of Ezekiel ch. 39 is the Altai Mountains in Central Asia. Ezekiel characterizes the Land of Magog as being in the far north in NKJV, which would be further away than the Caucasus Mountains. This assertion is further substantiated by the observation that the R1a haplogroup, which is believed to be of Central Asian origin, is also associated with the Magyars. However, the term "far north" could potentially refer to Finland, a possibility that would maintain the coherence of the narrative. This suggests an overlap between the "Magogs" inhabiting the far north and the Gog and Magog depicted in the Górr and Nórr tradition.

Myss wrote: ↑19 Oct 2024, 19:56 This is my biggest issue with the OLB religious narrative. It reads literally exactly like a christian's attempt to discard the old mythology.
The idea that the divine is a singular, seperate entity that is somehow everything so it doesn't need any elaboration and can't be understood anyways bla bla basic wooowoo nonsense, is a semitic copout.
Now could there originally have been a more simple religion with more focus on the skyfather/electric male deity and the earthly/receiving female deity or even just one entity? Sure. But the assertion here is that the last thousands of years of ethnic religion that we know of is just made up nonsense by a priestly caste, rather than the genuine thoughts and expressions of our tradition. (...) The most basic human religion is animism, which is just the understanding that everything around you has a living animated energy. The universe is electric and alive,

Myss, I hope you are not discouraged. I at my core just look for a good understanding of our pre-christian inheritance. I think too that the other pagans were not vastly different from Fryas, and maybe not only did sacred wells and myths about nature exist in Fryas' territory also the pagans were aware of Fryas thinking, and all of it, also polytheism, was widely known and discussed, in a 'esoteric' and filosofical way and had a certain harmony rather then rejection, or stress on incompatibility. Adela folowers just understood the importance of keeping some principles clear. I believe the Mothercult was born from/ preceded by sjamanism/animism, and female figurines are the oldest found totems(fertilitycult). It likely preceded the European polytheism you are fond of like in Greece, Slavic lands, Scandinavia, Germany etc. Mostly as an overarching cilvilisational aspect, like Buddism overarches Shinto and fairytale myth in Japan. Women elders had status and many cultures had Vestal Virgins, who were lauded as the most ancient priesthood. Their teachings were hidden from public and even it's keepers but taken very seriously by the Romans. If you ask Hindus or Native Americans they will also admit to believe in a holistic great spirit. Then socially we see a lot of vedic and other Deities(Durga,Hanuman) are also clan/caste-associated, so like Frya also a sort of Daemon of a clan. So to people of the time the Fryas may have seemed to just love the Holy Mother. But it would all be familiar as others -next to expanding their pantheon- did themselves keep her as Freya, Rosamund, Mokoch, Juno, Hera, Ashera and others. Missing (or slowly losing) the point that was saved or cultivated by the Fryas staying pure. But to me too there is beauty in the myths; in Abrahamics there are angels, heroes etc to show different lessons and aspects.
Like the book you mentioned, many sources -also the old ones- can be assumed to be political and partially dishonest. So it's still a puzzle to match it with all the other information that we have of our ancestors that you referenced but how it fits became gradually more clear to me.

• re; ancestorworship
  Fryaworship is ancestor worship. Around this time (in Libra) there would have been ceremonies I believe for her, as we travel through the astroidbelt seeming to come from the Pleiades, like the ancestors coming down in their heavenly ride still remaining in Halloween through Cristmass/Yule. The 3rd part of the year is the winter, asociated with the Crone, Casseiopeia, superior Mother, Wisdom, Forethought etc. Spring would be the Maiden(May), Sommer the time of procreation and abundance. So Fryas rituals would often line up with or birthed Pagan traditions, I think. Likely it was the root for the greek Thesmophoria
• re; monotheism
  I think that the distinction you make with Abrahaic religion, and how Fryas 'religion' resembles it, is not exactly correct; the Fryas, I believe, fit into the European pagan Earthly, life-loving heritage, not the Eastern 'detach from the evil world' attitude. It is just more 'pure' 'monotheist', cerebral and civilisation building (with law) then the others. So there are similarities with Abrahamics in that regard, and I'm interested in the treasure of these connections, as with european paganism. Also the theories on how the Abrahamist were rooted in female godess and similar duality teachings is one of those things. So your not entirely wrong.
• re; subversion
  However, a more superstitious religion is easier manipulated by priests and leaders, and picked up in more 'savage' tribes and it may have been a correct observation by Fryas, and this may have honestly moved the founders of Abrahamics too to become monotheists. So maybe not the monotheism but the agression was the issue in both conversionperiods.
  So I see how polytheism (if it even truly was that), could have been an instrument of division and hostility for gain. First they set you up this way then that way and you lose (your wife/son/daughter/farm etc) two times, or in a two stroke takedown, both with appeal to humanity, logic, easy life, allegiances etc. which are not bad arguments at first glance, like the priests showed with MinErva. The Celts'mothers invited the druids as their counsel. They often got deified like Minerva, or Wodin who got crowned my the Magus, and maybe deified, like the roman Emperors, Atilla, and Sumerian, Egyptian etc Kings. Maybe Adela was a proto- 'deity' (more like a hero) similar to how many 'gods' started.
  
  FROM GHOSTS TO GODS how ancient spirits of ancestors became gods and fairy folk (there is also some YUL-wheels in this temple in Georgia-interesting channel, since the Georgians live in a geographical pivotpoint of the history we study)
• re;Our nature
  The root of Frya is the same as friend. I realised recently that, when visiting another country (and now meeting these same people in our lands), many come to you calling you 'My Friend', unaware on how that is not done and tells on them in our social language. I think this is very core European; We are friends before we claim to be, and connected to this, we are willing to hear someone out in order to stay fair. It is a trait that has too have a long history.
  And to me this is the main message of the OLB and why it's great no matter if it is historically correct. What it says in it's core is true.
• re; pluriformity
  But I do think that tribes can cultivate the difference to others, just look at how today people who have the most in common and to gain with cooperation are completely hostile, because of political/filosofical up-played differences. I think in old times it hardly ever came to real fights and everybody understood their own culture to be part of a greater whole. The Rhine was connecting them, and there was a mostly cooperative, honor/trust attitude. So both Fryas and other pagans and sjamanic tribes did this. So maybe Fryas chose to worship Frya exlusively. Or they were influenced by their mediteranean contacts. The germanic tribes may have learned more patriarchal viewpoints from their contacts on the east. Slavics cultivated their festivals and countrylife, the Scythians a more hunter mentality, Semites a more breeder/domestication route and these attitudes also expressed in these tribes thinking on other subjects. By the way, Celts are not pure semites, but it is theorised on the forum that they (or large parts of their ancestry) and Etruskans used to live in Phrygia and Anatolia, and brought some traits from there; grammar, backward writing of Etruskans, genes, red hair of Irish and maybe a different attitude on spiritual matters, and 'weakened' to cooperate with the Romans.
• re;sources from pagan and Abrahamist traditions
  I do think that like pagan mythology/rites, the Christian tradition is valuable too, and the most European of the Abrahamics and modified to fit with it's abstractions, so we can turn some things in Abrahamics on their proper feet too. Recently I read the wiki on Scythian religion, and I could totally see how it would match up with Fryas, but also Wodanist polytheism, pantheism and how more south(India/Persia) this could evolve to a switch(back) to monotheism.
  I think the filosophy of rational wisdom of the mothercults was carried to a teaching of detachement through Buddism, Vedas, Avesta and maybe even from that set up the Abrahamics starting off on that. It originally was not detached from nature and life, as I see it.

If you are European this book is yours too. How can someone not be trilled and curious having a possible treasure of huge magnitude in their library.
see the recent talk of Survive the Jive and Gnostic Informant; to me many topics referenced get an extra(clarifying) dimension considering the angle of the OL manuscript. Should Europeans Return to Paganism? Survive the Jive & Gnostic Informant