Magy

Sylvia Dijkstra
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Magy

Post by Sylvia Dijkstra »

While reading parts about 'Magy' in Adela's Raad en de Gouwraad, 'Magy' is translated as 'magier' and 'oppermagier'. (Magician). While I love the magical part in this translation, I question if it is complete in its context.

Since the texts also contain information about the Fins, the people from Finland. Finland has a connection with Hungary, also known as the Magyar, since both languages are thought to sprout from a shared ancient laguage.

I do not want to deny the 'Oppermagier' his magical powers at all, I believe it is quite possible that the Magyar are most magical people. Magy and Magie are to similar in appearence and sound that it is impossible to deny the magic in that perspective, but that is my personal opinion.

What comes to my mind when the Magy is translated quite literally, is that he is of Finnish /Hungarian origin and he has an important position/role in politics. And perhaps he was very skilled in social sorcery?
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ott
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Re: Magy

Post by ott »

Some elements of the 'magic' used by the Mágí/magus seem to have been:
  • creating fear, making use of superstition (ch. 8a, 9a)
  • using 'magic' herbs and potions to influence consciousness (ch. 8b, 9a)
8a. Magyars and Finns
The supreme one is called ‘magus’. He is the high priest and king at once. All the other folk count for nothing and are entirely under the rule of the magus. The people do not even have a name, but we call them ‘Finns’ because, although their feasts are altogether dreary and bloody, they are [052] much more ‘fine’ (or: formal) than ours. They are not to be envied, for they are slaves of the priests and, worse still, of their beliefs. They believe that evil spirits are everywhere and enter into people and animals. But of Wralda’s spirit they know nothing. The Finns have stone weapons, while the weapons of the Magyars are of copper. The Magyars claim that they can summon and banish the evil spirits [THA ÀRGE GÁSTON BANNA ÀND VRBANNA]. The Finns are constantly in fear because of this, and their faces never show signs of joy.
8b. Wodin and the Magus
When Wodin returned, the magus gave him his daughter to wife. He was then incensed with herbs. But among them were magic herbs [TÁWER.KRÛDON], and Wodin gradually became so audacious that he dared to disavow and ridicule Frya and Wralda’s spirit while he bent his free neck before images of false gods.
9a. Kelta and Minerva
When Kelta saw that her scheme had failed, she went from bad to worse. Secretly, she invited Magyars to come and teach her sorcery [TÁWERY]. And when she had had enough of that, she threw herself into the arms of the Gools. All these misdeeds, though, did nothing to improve her position. When she realized that the steersmen only shunned her more and more, she tried to entice them through fear. When the moon was full and the sea stormy, she would walk the wild waves, shouting at the steersmen that they would all perish if they did not worship her. She also blinded their eyes so that they mistook land for water and water for land, causing many a ship to be lost [064] with crew and cargo.
At the first war feast that followed, when all her landsmen were armed, she brought out barrels of beer, to which she had added a magic potion [TÁWER.DRANK].
Relevant post: here.
Also see this video at 2:00.
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Re: Magy

Post by ott »

Some more related fragments (referring to witchcraft/sorcery):

4f. Minerva
When they realized that they had missed their mark, the princes and priests began accusing her and said she had bewitched [HEXNAD] the people. But our folk, and the good Greeks, avowed everywhere that it was slander. Once they came and asked: “So if you are not a sorceress [THJONSTER], what then is the purpose of the eggs you always have with you?”
Minerva answered: “These eggs are the symbol of Frya’s counsels, in which our future, and that of all humankind, lies concealed. Time must hatch them and we must see that they come to no harm.”
9a. The War of Kelta and Minerva
But Minerva has bewitched [BIHEXNATH] all the folk — yes bewitched, my friends — even as all our cattle that died recently. It must be made known, and I will tell you this: If I were not a [065] burgmaid, I know what I would do. I would burn that witch [HEX] in her nest!
14g. Faults of the Brokmen
They persistently believe in evil spirits, witches [HEXNA], sorcerers [KOLLA], little forest men, and elves — as if they stemmed from the Finns.
19c. Reintia’s Dream
Wralda, she said, had signaled to her by thunder that all Frya’s folk must become friends, united as sisters and brothers, or else Finda’s folk would come and eradicate them all from the face of the earth. After [203] the thunder, Frya’s seven watch maidens had appeared in her dreams, seven nights in succession. They said: [...] The naïve folk, who, under Magyar influence, had become accustomed to such folly, believed all that she said, causing the women to clasp their children tightly to their bosoms in horror.
Sylvia Dijkstra
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Re: Magy

Post by Sylvia Dijkstra »

Thank you Jan!
I see I had to dive in deeper and was to quick in my judgement and questions. This is very helpful and answers it in a clear way!
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Re: Magy

Post by Nordic »

Sylvia Dijkstra wrote: 03 Jul 2023, 19:21What comes to my mind when the Magy is translated quite literally, is that he is of Finnish /Hungarian origin and he has an important position/role in politics. And perhaps he was very skilled in social sorcery?
Hello and welcome.

The main source other than OL to use Magus/Magi in context of Finnic peoples is medieval atlas Tabula Rogeriana made by a 12th century Arabian (Islamic) scholar Muhammad al-Idrisi for his European paymaster Roger II. Please see here an early 1900s German copy of the map from the atlas book with north at bottom. The accompanying text mentions "Medsuunah [Medynske?] being a large thriving inhabited city, it's population large and inhabitants are fire worshipping Magi" that is little vague in sense that Finnish, Lappish and Germanic peoples all worshipped or culturally deified fire one way or another. The association with Amazons or Terra Feminarum is attested elsewhere in antiquity and medieval era Finnic peoples (e.g. Adam of Bremen, Tacitus), possibly as corruption of Kvenland (Norse term for Kainuu region) misunderstood as Kvinnaland ('woman-land') or Naissaar of Estonia ('woman-island').

The Finnish episodes of OL are echoed to great degree in Norse sagas traditions on Fornjót lineage that detail at depth how in antiquity Finnish armies took over the Scandinavia and married the rulers therein. The northern Finnish army group in OL text that goes via the Lappland area of Norway is specifially mentioned to have used magic in one of the many saga versions (this version called Fundinn Noregr):
After that he fared forth from Kvenland [Kainuu region, Finland] and inside the sea-bight, and they came thither where those men were who are called Lapps, that is at the back of Finmark [Finnmark, Norway]. But the Lapps wished to forbid them a passage, and there arose a battle; and that might and magic [fjölkynngi] followed Norr and his men; that their foes became as swine as soon as they heard the war-cry and saw weapons drawn, and the Lapps betook themselves to flight.
Fjölkynngi is translated 'skilled in the black art, the black art, witchcraft' (source, source).

When Fornjót sagas and OL are put next to each other it becomes apparent that the specific "magus" battling Wodin is Gylfa of Fornjót line, of which exists much Norse saga material and art, including a saga where he is the one being tricked. Account in Ynglinga saga retains the magical element:
Now when Odin heard that things were in a prosperous condition in the land to the east beside Gylve; he went thither, and Gylve made a peace with him, for Gylve thought he had no strength to oppose the people of Asaland. Odin and Gylve had many tricks and enchantments [sjónhverfingum] against each other; but the Asaland people had always the superiority.
Sjónhverfingum is translated as 'worked by spell' (source).

The best overall match to Magus/Magi archetype, other than the above episode, is Väinämöinen (Norse name Ægir/Hlér in Fornjót lineage; Wægmund to old Anglo-Saxons). Whose main feature, other than being an old sage, value leader and demigod, is being a master magician. The name means 'like a deep and calm stream' (source). Examples of artistic descriptions are found here (centre), here, here and here. Movie depiction here and other examples from artsy 1980s version here, here and here. The last link jumps to portion based on SKVR poetry (The Theft of the Sampo) echoing to great degree the 11b. Death of Frana episode (MS 082).

In later times of Christian regimes the Norse and Finnish sagas became politically incorrect and the traditions mostly survived in obscure Norse and Finnish sources (various saga books, oral poetry). They also survived in occult grimoire as spirit demons. Known examples where this very same character appears are The Discoverie of Witchcraft (link, as "Vine" from väinä/viena, father Fornjót as "Forneus") and Atalanta Fugiens (link, based on a SKVR poem narrative).
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Kraftr
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Re: Magy

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I have the hypothosis that the magi are maybe the Persians, or a cult derived from there. There is a YTer who is a pagan Iranian, who explains the magi are the original pagan sjamancult of Persia, connected to Zoroastrianism, Egyptian and Sumerian mythology, who’s teachings got perverted by priests who made themselves into a taxlevying class, and from whom in my current opinion came manichiaism, mithraism, the cult of Aphrodite(Cyprus), hermeticism and the Abrahamic cults. The Assyrian court had many magi as thinktank for their politics.
This man says that the word magi thus later became synonym for pagan,as did the word haman(sjaman) to these new intolerant monotheists and was used by them for European pagans as well, and that this is how the Hungarians (and maybe Finns or other Finda-people) got that name. Or because to northwesterners the Finda chiefs were, or seemed, controlled by these demanding powers and these priests were among them with more succes than versus Min Erva and her legacy. Or were called Magi by Arabs and it stuck.
The establishment of the Aphrodite cult merging European godesses with the mesopotamian Ishtar(whore of Babylon), the Mithraic initiationcult, and possibly the druid-cult were, as I suppose, among their ways to take over in darkness(Occult) by mysticism. The husstle with words, theories, rules, idols, culture, etc. are the bigger portion of the magic practiced(still active on us today) And Greek (and Freyans/Goths)were vigilant against them, but partially succesfully tainted. And more and more our thinking and traditions got more improper, as in; not our own, and covertly bowing to the ‘magi’ view of the world; let them rule you, or at least rot your ‘witschap’ by their hard-to-notice conceptbending.
So not only physical poisoning was their trade. I also play with the idea that Herculaneum and Pompeii were Sodom and Gomorrah, and outposts of another tactic; whoredom, sanctioned by the whore-godess Ishtar. Also Paris of Troy chose to give the apple to Aphrodite, not Athena or Hera, betraying European ethos?
So my presumption is that bronze-age early mesopotamian, Achamenid expansion in the mediterranean and black sea area might be the magi from OL.
The bull(Baal, lord) that Zeus turned into, took Europa(swan=Freya) for a ride/rape. Baal and Ishtar are represented mostly by the bull or crescent moon and eightpointed star or (eightcornered)cube, still represented in Islamic flags.

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Re: Magy

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because of the parallels to today I made this drawing.
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Kraftr
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Re: Magy

Post by Kraftr »

By the way, what if the bull(that was slaughtered to create the world)that was also “the father’ in pagan magi worldview, would be a myth about wralda, showing a common ancestor worldview, his daughter God, Ishtar could be our Freya? Also Athena was born of the head of Zeus.(no mother)
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Re: Magy

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Since you brought up the bull, there is a notable Finnish SKVR poetry sub-genre "Big ox" where a celestial or otherwise fantastically large bull is slaughtered by the Finnish heroes. An example:
In Häme [inland region] an ox was born,
a bull in Finland bred
in Häme the tail swept
head swinged in Tornio [northern region]
for a day the swallow flew
between the ox horns
for a month a squirrel ran
along the ox's tailbone [spine]
both of the back and the tail.
Ukko was brought to hit,
Virokannas to cut,
Palvanen to keep in place;
the ox swing its head,
turned its black eyes,
Ukko was flung to a fir tree,
Palvanen made to the willows,
Vironkannas to the wickers [...] (source: SKVR I2 892)
Other poem variants end up in the massive ox finally slaughered, resulting in fantastical amounts of meat and body fat. The academics have noted the connection to the Mithra bull cult and to Zeus bull, as Ukko ('Old Man' e.g. Ukko Väinämöinen) hero or deity name carries the connotation of lightning: Finnish ukkonen ' thunder and lightning', lit. 'like an Old Man' cf. Germanic thunder-Thor and Öku-Þor 'Ukko-Thor'. The squirrel running along the ox's spine has been likened to Ratatoskr of Germanic mythology (more here).

As for the Persian magi to Finnish "magus" connection, the connections that I can make of are that in the Nordic tradition that the infant Jesus or his parents was judged by likes of sage Väinämöinen, the story of Asynjor Morse (Nordic female Moses) taking Jews from Egypt to Persia and the generic magus/magi naming association that is not limited to Finns; Tabula Rogeriana world atlas map puts such 'magicians' also to far-away Asian coastline, as seen in islands of box "L" in the 1928 German version of Tabula Rogeriana.

The first Jesus story is present in SKVR poetry of genres "Judgement of Väinämöinen" and "poem of Marketta" plus Bock family saga. The poems usually put the mother as Finnish woman Marketta or Marjatta ('Berry-ess') and the son as Jesus or king Ilmarinen (the king element being central as he replaces the preceding Väinämöinen who suicides himself). The pagan cultural heroes like Ukko Väinämöinen and others are called to judge the child, but the child is supernaturally gifted in speech and shames all the pagan top level judges, ending up crowned as the new king of the 'Money Mountain' (Rahavuori). There exists art depicting this scenario: an example, another example, third example.

The latter variant is the tale of how a Asynjor human woman, of the ruling royal house in Finland, called Margareta made a child outside the super strict breeding system. Her son ended up as the cultural hero Jesus in Byzantium, Egypt, India and Palestine, dying peacefully in India as respected old sage (source, source), being highly educated from young age onwards.

Outside of these Finnish takes the same story must have been in some ways known other mediaval peoples. The Icelandic Norse people based the main hero of one of their Christian conversion sagas on the Bock family saga Jesus or his SKVR poetry Ilmarinen parallel (Ra-Ilmarinen aka Erik <-> Eirikr of Eireks saga víðförla, with Odenma <-> Ódainsakr). The Levantine peoples seem to have known Nordic saga Jesus as one Scythianus (more here, Finland called a portion of 'Scythia' here). And finally Catholic pope Innocent III made the odd remark that Finnic Livonia in Baltic Sea was the land of Jesus' mother that makes little sense other than in Bock family saga context where the Jesus' parents travel over Gulf of Finland to Baltic region (see image here). Jesus' alternative name Isa could come from Finnish isä 'father' (see here and here).

Thus we have widely divergent takes where in one better known versions it's the Persian magi who encounter the infant Jesus and in another lesser known version it's the Finnish "magus" of OL and Tabula Rogeriana who are present with Jesus' mother or the infant Jesus. It's possible to synchronise these accounts by noting that it's possible for Jesus' parents to have been judged (exiled, ending up in Byzantium and Levant) by Finnish "magus" of OL and Tabula Rogeriana, then later on to have encounter Persian Zoroastrian magis while operating in Byzantium, Levant and India.

The second older Persian narrative element is attested in Europe primarily in Bock family saga, where due to Nordic evil (selfish) Aser man Krishna's the Brahmins leave India to Middle East and end up in Egypt where they're allowed to stay but not mix with the Pharaoh's folk (first original Pharaoh a Nordic Aser man as per the story). The Jews send a message to Aser in north and being the good folks they reply back by sending a female Asynjor leader Morse ('mother-says'). However, as is a repeated trope in Bock family saga, the Aser messenger flips out when in south and goes rogue by forming a new religion by leading the Jews from Egypt to Persia. Jews who do not take part in this journey are later called the Gypsies ('Egyptians') or Roma people ('Romans') due to geographic direction they arrive from to Europe, but their true racial-cultural origin is in India.

The female Moses element of the story was known to best learned ancient Greeks (Alexander Polyhistor) and later to best learned Byzantines (Suda encyclopedia) as Moso the female lawgiver of Jews, but apparently without the Nordic Asynjor element or the grand arch of Krishna and India. What then happened in Persia is unknown to me, though we know from other sources there were Persian periods in Jewish history. The base level Krishna story survived outside of Finland in a Norse saga (Þorsteins saga Víkingssonar ch. 3, 6), but without the Brahmins and Jews episodes.

OL narrative does not seem to be aware of these at all, though it shares the same out-of-east danger religion element shared with Norse (Ragnarök Fenrir wolf of eastern river Ván) and Finnish worldviews (eastern religions and the third European Ragnarök in Bock family saga). In OL version the main cultprit is Buddhism-turned-Christianity, whereas in Finnish epic arch version the milleniums long string of falling domino pieces star to fall already with Krishna at about 3000 BC, ending with Christianity taking over the Fennoscandia and Russia in AD 900s to 1200s period.
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Kraftr
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Re: Magy

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The Theology of the Phoenicians

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzbvNAPKzBg
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