Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

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teijahn
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Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by teijahn »

How can this be reconciled with fact? Clearly it refers to the man known to the world as Jesus, yet was told around 600 years before he was born. As I perceive it, the only thing that could clear this from being absolute rubbish is (1) The Aldland submergence date of circa 2193 BC which is referenced several times in the book as I understand it is around 600 years early, or (2) the entire Jesus story is around 600 years late. Neither of these seem great options, particularly the latter.

Someone help me out here, I am struggling severely with this part of the story and my 40 year confidence that this is a true story is diminishing. Note that Jesus was not known as Jesus in his lifetime, but Yeshua/Jeshua.

Link to chapter 15c. Yesus or Buda of Kashmir
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ott
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by ott »

I wrote about this topic in a 2017 blog post (link).

Summary: I don't think OL's 'Yes-us' refers to Jesus of Nazareth. The latter may rather have been named after the first.

Note Dela's warning in ch. 15c: This religion, which requires the priests to possess no skills other than eloquence, hypocrisy, and foul play, has expanded from East to West — and will also reach our lands.

Better than to copy a whole chapter is to add a link to it (or select only the most relevant fragments). I will edit your post to replace the long quote by a link.
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Nordic
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by Nordic »

Only the name Yesus is a direct match with Palestine region Jesus. All other elements, save perhaps the prophecy of coming religion, is more or less similar to all famous philosopher saint figures. Name Jesus was never the sole property of the famous one active in Palestine:
  • Greek god-hero Rhesus with similar stories e.g. "also announced the imminent resurrection of Rhesus, who will become immortal but will be sent to stay in a cave" (cf. Jesus in tomb cave, source); the medieval or older story of Finnish or Livonian Finnish Jesus (Bock family saga Jesus as textual model for Scythianus and main hero of Eireks Saga Víðförla and pope Innocent III's reference)
  • Biblical narrative Jesus is descended from Jesse or Is(s)ai, which is more or less a variant of the same basic name sound form (source)
  • Jesus was a common name in 1st century AD Palestine, two examples being the temple high priests Jesus son of Damneus and Jesus the son of Gamala (source, source.)
People often take notice of the Jesus name element, but leave out the equally noteworthy reference to Krishna the herdsman (KRIS.EN. THAT IS HERDER). Or the even larger question of why is the Biblical Jesus called with title of "Krishna" and why are Christians called "Krishna-nians"? The simple answer to all of this is, that all ancient holy men, saints, philosophers more or less used the same names and titles on purpose; many of the old source names are not true given names as such. I agree with Jan's reasoning that the dating at the very beginning of the Yesus of Kashmir episode is likely a scribe error and originally referred to about 600 BC.

The Frisian prophecy in OL Yesus narrative, that an eastern religion will one day come to western European lands, may be the original myth behind the idea that the Fenrir wolf, tied up and creating the Van river or Don river in Eastern Europe towards the Eurasian border regions (source, source ch. 1), will be freed at the Ragnarök and will destroy the old European system (image below from Icelandic manuscript AM 738).
Fenrir-wolf-river-Don.jpg
Fenrir-wolf-river-Don.jpg (249.23 KiB) Viewed 1838 times
For Buddhist influence on Christianity, see king Ashoka's Buddhist missionary work in Greece (source) and the works of late Christian Lindtner (source) who was a world-renowed Pali canon specialist and who teached that many Christian ideas, parables and even some of the names are directly downstream of older Buddhist textual precedessors. The above mentioned Nordic Jesus of Bock family saga studies Buddhism and Hinduism in India during his younger days before heading into Palestine; this is the textual reason why the main Norse character Erik is sent by the Byzantine ruler to search the Norse-Christian Paradise in India of all places.
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teijahn
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by teijahn »

ott wrote: 19 Dec 2023, 14:16
Summary: I don't think OL's 'Yes-us' refers to Jesus of Nazareth. The latter may rather have been named after the first.

Better than to copy a whole chapter is to add a link to it (or select only the most relevant fragments). I will edit your post to replace the long quote by a link.
Nordic wrote: 19 Dec 2023, 14:48 Biblical narrative Jesus is descended from Jesse or Is(s)ai, which is more or less a variant of the same basic name sound form (source)
Jesus was a common name in 1st century AD Palestine, two examples being the temple high priests Jesus son of Damneus and Jesus the son of Gamala (source, source.)
Point taken re the copy/link process, not so much on the Jesus issue. As I noted in my post "Jesus" was actually named at birth and in his lifetime Aramaic/Hebrew Yeshua, and only became known as Jesus in the translation/recording from Hebrew to Greek-Latin-English. I am unable to comprehend how a Frisian author 600 years before those times would come up with a name that only evolved to Jesus thru centuries later translation.

As much as there are variations in the biblical and Oera Linda accounts there are enough correspondences to convince me that the OL Yesus is a version of the biblical story. On this point perhaps we need to agree to disagree.
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ott
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by ott »

teijahn wrote: 20 Dec 2023, 22:55 As I noted in my post "Jesus" was actually named at birth and in his lifetime Aramaic/Hebrew Yeshua, and only became known as Jesus in the translation/recording from Hebrew to Greek-Latin-English. I am unable to comprehend how a Frisian author 600 years before those times would come up with a name that only evolved to Jesus thru centuries later translation.
It is well possible that the Aramaic/Hebrew name Yeshua was changed into Greek-Latin-English Jesus, because there was more familiarity in our regions with this latter spelling, from the earlier JES.US a.k.a BÛDA, KRIS.EN, FÒ (translated by me as Yesus, Buda, Krisen, Fo), described in Oera Linda.

In early christianity there may indeed have been confusion between the two.
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Nordic
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by Nordic »

Aside the Greek Rhesus-Jesus mentioned above, there was the Celtic Esus-Jesus the loggerman (link), that is Jesus the "carpenter" (tektōn).

Over the years I have spent much time studying the saint characters, especially the medieval and older claims that likes of Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Alexander the Great, Jesus, Muhammad had a connection to northern Europeans either by ethnic descent or by travelling here. And the associated textual theme of whether the Biblical paradise existed textually originally in Palestine, elsewhere in Middle East, India or Fennoscandia.

What we are today taught by likes of high schools, common library books or Wikipedia summaries is woefully short of representing the actual beliefs of what Europeans, Asians and Africans actually thought about the issue. For example: the medieval heathen Norse reflection on Krishna-Narakasura episode is not commonly known even among Norse saga scholars (Kol and Tirus of India); few Greek, Roman or Christian theologians seem to know today that Moses was commonly understood to be a woman in antiquity and medieval era (Moso the female lawgiver); or that Muhammad was buried in a magnetically levitating iron coffin and true author of Quran was a Christian monk Sergius Bahira, nicknamed 'angel Gabriel' (The Romance of Muhammad); there are Egyptian accounts of Moses (Manetho and Chaeremon); original meanings of Elohim are preserved in Sumerian King List and Phoenician Sanchuniathon (Alulim and Eloeim); and so on. What we get today is a very narrow Roman-Jewish take - one could say a Josephusian take - that leaves out the non-Semitic, non-Greek variant versions of all those saint characters. Same thing with Jesus Christ of Palestine.

Edit: fixed typo Asura -> Narakasura.
Last edited by Nordic on 27 Dec 2023, 11:53, edited 1 time in total.
Er Aldaric
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by Er Aldaric »

I agree with Ott, that being that Yesus of the OL is not the biblical Jesus. evaluating the OL's description of this Yesus character as being anachronistic because the events of the New Testament take place later relies on the assumption that the NT itself is an accurate retelling of history. In truth the origins of christianity is not cut and dry. There is also reason to believe christianity as we know it is younger than we are made to believe, the arguably oldest depiction of Jesus of Nazareth comes from at least the first century, and following early depictions are from the third and fourth centuries, the gospels were written likely 70-100 AD. The idea that christianity is quite younger than we are led to believe is compounded if one is to consider the revisionist chronology of the first millennium discussed here prior.

What is likely is that Yesus of the OL had a ripple effect across Asia. This true historical figure became subject to priestly interpretation and soon we had the Buddha and fanciful stories of Krishna. The birth of christianity would likely have been ancient Jews claiming this man from legend was in fact their messiah, and he had already come for their people - now they wait for his return. In short, Jesus of Nazareth never existed and Yesus of the OL was retroactively made the jewish messiah during a culture war.
Last edited by Er Aldaric on 25 Dec 2023, 06:46, edited 1 time in total.
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JMacLugash
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by JMacLugash »

I think what is important isn’t so much the name of the figure of Hellenia’s “Jesus”, or even the date the events of his life were supposed to have taken place, but rather the events that she describes as taking place after his life, particularly the actions of the “false priests”:

“[A]nd in the end they said that Yesus was a god; that he himself had revealed this to them, and that all who would believe in him and his teachings would enter his kingdom hereafter, where joy and pleasures reside...

Because they knew that Yesus had been in arms against the rich, they preached everywhere that poverty and simplicity are the gateway to his kingdom; that those who have suffered the most here on Earth would hereafter enjoy the greatest pleasures...

This religion... has expanded from East to West — and will also reach our lands.


According to Hellenia, the priests taught that Jesus/Yesus was “a god” (see John 1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."), that if you “believe in him” you enter “his kingdom hereafter” (see John 3:16: "For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life"), that “poverty and simplicity are the gateway to his kingdom; that those who have suffered the most here on Earth would hereafter enjoy the greatest pleasures reside” (see the Beatitudes in Matthew 5: “Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven… Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven”). And she states that the religion of the ‘cult’ of Jesus/Yesus “expanded from East to West- and will also reach our lands.”

ALL of these statements explicitly describe Christianity.

Buddhism does not teach Gautama Buddha (or anyone else for that matter) is a “god”, it doesn’t have a doctrine of “believing in him” to enter a “kingdom hereafter”, and as a movement, it expanded West to East, not East to West. Buddhism was virtually unknown in the West until the latter part of the 19th century. But Christianity and the figure of Jesus Christ check all of these boxes.

As far as dating, I should point out that there is no real way to know that the dates Hellenia was referring to actually line up to our current system of dating, which wasn’t developed until 525 AD. (and I won’t even get into the Fomenko/New Chronology stuff).

And while it may seem odd that the guy with the Celtic Cross in his avatar is saying this, there is also no way to be certain that the story of Jesus of Nazareth is "historical", so to say this can't be the same figure because the dates don't match when this mysterious personage who wrote nothing and only appeared to the most prolific proponent of early Christianity (Paul of Tarsus) in a "vision", was supposed to have lived, might be a bit of an unintentional red herring. To be honest, I’m somewhat agnostic at this point about the Gospel accounts of “Jesus of Nazareth” being “historical” in the same way that it is “historical” that I was born on July 13th 1980 at 8:05pm in a hospital room in Maine. For one, ancients didn’t view history in the same way we do, and most modern people don’t realize that.

But ultimately, I don't think that the mundane/earthly historicity of the Gospel narratives (many of which are contradictory in places) is really all that important in the grand scheme of things. I believe that we are talking about a spiritual reality that is mirrored in the myth of the First Yule in the Oera Linda, and that "Christ" is a spiritual archetype that men can embody and that provides a path back to living in accordance with the Most High All-Father God (Wr-Alda), which each of the races of men (including Frya's folk) fell away from and into a state of degeneracy and idolatry (which is also described in the OLB).

Just my two cents.
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Pax
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by Pax »

My theory: Jesus and Buda of Oera Linda, Jesus of the Bible and Buddha are the same person. Different times of birth between Jesus and Buddha may be explained by Gunnar Heinsohn's finding that there are phantom centuries and that different regions are historically misaligned. Buda and Buddha were both born to royal parents and left their homes to go wander and teach, starting in northern India. It has been mentioned on the forum that there are texts of the “Jesus of Kashmir.” Buddha is traditionally the reincarnation of Krishna, and Jesus of the Bible is traditionally known as Christ (christos, χριστός). Jesus of the Oera Linda is called Krisen. The connection between Krishna, Christ and Krisen is obvious when considering the rest of the facts.

Instead of staying in India, Buddha went westward, arriving in Palestine, where we will from now on call him Jesus. Both Jesuses of Oera Linda and the Bible were wise, taught the people and spoke against rich men and priests, causing the latter to haunt them. The followers of both Jesuses proclaimed the teachings of said Jesuses everywhere. Jesus of the Bible reveals himself after death, ascends to god status and promises the kingdom of heaven to anyone who believes in him. Those are the same things that the priests in Oera Linda tell everyone. The Bible teaches the corrupted messages of Jesus of the Oera Linda, such as being meek or enduring suffering.

Oera Linda (from 15c):
  • poverty and simplicity are the gateway to his kingdom
  • those who have suffered the most here on Earth would hereafter enjoy the greatest pleasures
  • one must stamp out all his passions (perhaps: desires?)
  • the perfection of mankind consisted in becoming as immovable as cold stone
  • one must offer generously to the church (CHERKE)
Bible:
  • Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. ... Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. ... Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matthew 5:3-12)
  • Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Corinthians 12:10)
  • But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. (Matthew 5:39-42)
  • The Bible does not advocate for killing one's passions. However, it advices not to seek revenge (act on a passionate thought) or be lustful (act on passions and desires of the flesh).
  • But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:22-24)
  • Several references in Matthew about leaving gifts, sacrifices and offerings at the altar.
This comparison is not exhaustive, and I am sure a Bible-basher can give me many counter-examples; that is the genius of the Bible.

This religion spreads from east to west both in Oera Linda and in Biblical Jesus' case, reaching Fryasland (Europe). The book mentioned in Jan's blog post called Caesar's Messiah suggests that “Christianity” as we know it was created by the Roman Empire as a means to control the population. The priesthood — especially the high priest (pontifex maximus) — wielded enormous power in Rome. We already know they created the Vestal Virgins (see 04f). This same priesthood probably co-opted Buddha's/Jesus' ideas, killed him, deified him with statues and claimed to speak on his behalf, using him as the perfect idol to trick and control people. Minerva was also deified with statues and used to control people.
Last edited by Pax on 28 Dec 2023, 12:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Wil Helm
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by Wil Helm »

I give much credit to the idea that a person/place can be known by different names, depending who is telling.
For me, it could be possible Jessos Krisen OLB = Kersten Jesus Christ = Budha = Krishna.

Included that coming from this idea, our timelines are not accurate.
So when speaking fe 803 years nei Kersten rekoning.
What Kersten are we talking about? The one 593 years after the original Krisen rekoning I assume?
Then fe Liko wrote in 1395 nei original Krisen.
And Hidde in 1848 ?!
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