Sandbach at sacred-texts vs OL-wiki

About translation in general and of specific fragments
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ott
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Sandbach at sacred-texts vs OL-wiki

Post by ott »

half life over wrote: 07 Sep 2023, 15:38 references:
... https://sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb43.htm
This reference was to a website that has the Sandbach (1876) translation only, which was a translation of the first Dutch translation of 1872, not based on the original texts.

The OL-wiki wiki.oeralinda.org has both the Sandbach translation and the most up to date version of mine, which has been improved since its first publication with help of professional editor/translator Bruce Stafford. Indeed, our translation is based on the original texts, after 15 years of study.

Sandbach (1876) and Ott (2023) can thus easily be compared, and every chapter has links to the original language (transcription or transliteration), even to the original manuscript pages.

The Sacred-texts version does not contain the original language. The creator of this version (J.B. Hare in 2009) in his introduction wrote that OL is a product of 19th century, ascendant nationalism in Europe, using local folklore and ancient legends to bolster a sense of identity. He added that OL is conventionally agreed to be a forgery, written during the mid-19th century (...) based on the paper which the manuscript is written on, as well as internal and linguistic evidence and that it has touches of bigotry and intolerance which will be galling to most modern readers. (Who here would want to propagate such views?)

Listed below are some examples of noteworthy differences between both translations of the concerning text, which I named 15b. Hellenia: Princes and Priests.

1. MS page 134, line 24 or [134/24]
Sandbach: Hail to all true Frisians.
Ott: All true Fryas, hail!
Original: ALLE ÀFTA FRYA​.S [25]* HELD.
(*note that 1- or 2-digit numbers between brackets are line numbers; page numbers are always 3-digits)

Frisians can be misleading as it is the modern name (probably from after Friso's times) of a smaller group than that described in OL. Fryas (short for Frya's Children or Folk) — not Fryans — is the original name.

2. MS page 134, line 25 or [134/25]
Sandbach: In the olden times, the Slavonic race knew nothing of liberty.
Ott: In early times, the slave peoples knew nothing of freedom.
Original: IN ÉRA TIDA NISTON THA SLÁVONA FOLKAR NAWET FON FRYHÉD.
a. In early times is closer to the original, using a cognate of ÉRA.

b. SLÁVONA means slaves and is used 33 times in the manuscript (with some spelling variety), singular is SLÁF/SLÁV (used thrice), female slave is SLÁFINE (once). Slave peoples (or folks) will have been a term for who the Fryas considered unfree people. 'Official' etymology states that slave is derived from Slav (member of Slavonic race), but OL clearly suggests that it is the other way around.

c. Why translate FRYHÉD with liberty instead of freedom? (more examples here)

3. MS page 135, line 1 or [135/01]
Sandbach: everything must serve to enrich and make more powerful the priests and the princes, and to satisfy them.
Ott: all was to make the princes and priests ever richer and more powerful, and to their own detriment.
Original: (...) HJARA SELVA TO [5] SÀDENE (→ SKÁDANE).
a. HJARA SELVA means themselves, so this is about the slave peoples, not the priests and princes.

b. From the context, it is clear that SÀDENE should be SKÁDANE and this is indeed idiomatic:
  • [022/19] VSA FRYDOM TO SKADANE (→ SKÁDANE) — to the detriment of our freedom (or: inflicting damage on our ...)
  • [033/15] EKKORUM TO SKÁDANE — inflicting damage on one another
  • [060/08] VSA AJN SÉ​.KÀMPAR TO SKÁDNE (→ SKÁDANE) — to the detriment of our own sea campaigners (or: inflicting damage on our ...)
So it should be: to their (the slaves') own detriment; and not: to satisfy them (the priests and princes).

4. MS page 135, line 32 or [135/32]
Sandbach: the gods were angry with the domineering of the wicked.
Ott: the gods were furious about the disobedience of the protesters.
Original: THA DROCHTNA SEND [136] TORNICH OVIRA OVERHÉRICHHÉD THÉRA BOSA.
The noun OVERHÉRICHHÉD can be split into OVER, HÉRICH and HÉD. The suffix "-HÉD" means "state : condition : quality" (Dutch/German: -heid/-heit), like English -ness.

The adjectives HÉRICH (plur. HÉRIGA) and OVERHÉRICH and the noun HÉRICHHÉD are used in other fragments:
  • [011/04] HÉRIGA BÀRN — Dutiful children! (I decided against 'obedient' as that sounds too slavish for grown up children. HÉRICH here means they listened well, paid good attention.)
  • [024/13] SA MOT MÀN SIN FOLGAR HÉRICH WÉSA — the one who is next in command must be obeyed (more literally: one must be obedient to the next in command)
  • [039/21] THÀT WI HJARA TJVTH OVERHÉRICH MAKAD HÉDE — that we had made their people unruly (or: disobedient)
  • [087/03] THÉR NÉRE LÔNGER NÉN HÉRICHHÉD NI BOD — no longer having any among them willing or able to command (more literally: there no longer was obedience nor command)
  • [155/21] A​.DEL WAS HÉRICHAdel was obedient
This proves that disobedience is a better translation than domineering.
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Re: Sandbach at sacred-texts vs OL-wiki

Post by ott »

Anyone who thinks that certain parts or fragments are better translated in the Sandbach (or Raubenheimer*) version is welcome to post examples here.

*Alewyn Raubenheimer's first edition of Survivors of the Great Tsunami included (as appendix) a Sandbach translation that he had found on the web but had been rephrased by Tony Steele (author of the fictitious Daughters of Frya). Raubenheimer had not been aware of Steele's edits. In his two later editions (third was renamed Chronicles from pre-Celtic Europe), this version was replaced by one he had rephrased himself, perhaps partly inspired by discussions on the Unexplained Mysteries forum, but not after actually studying the original language.
half life over
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Re: Sandbach at sacred-texts vs OL-wiki

Post by half life over »

I am currently read your translation with my family, but I did come across certain parts I prefer as they are written in the Sandbach translation. I do think your version is overall a better translation. Sandbach has some major discrepancies, such as using "liberty" instead of "freedom."
half life over
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Re: Sandbach at sacred-texts vs OL-wiki

Post by half life over »

I do have a question, why did you decide to translate, "the Slavonic race knew nothing of liberty" to "the slave peoples knew nothing of freedom"? Isn't it referring to the slavic people at that time period?

The archaeological evidence shows that in ancient Slavic societies, they built stone houses and carved homes and temples into mountains. Does this not indicate that the word "Slav" is the root word for "slave"? https://www.kiwi.com/stories/ancient-stone-structures/
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Re: Sandbach at sacred-texts vs OL-wiki

Post by ott »

It says SLÁVONA FOLKAR, the first word being plural of 'slave' and the second word plural of 'folk'/'people'.
'Slavonic' or 'slavic' race/people is a modern notion and the point that they were slaves would be lost.

The carved spaces in the Ethiopian rocks are interesting indeed and could be part of what was referred to, but doesn't have to. There will be many other places with carved out living spaces and they don't have to all have been made through forced labor.
Er Aldaric
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Re: Sandbach at sacred-texts vs OL-wiki

Post by Er Aldaric »

Anyone who thinks that certain parts or fragments are better translated in the Sandbach (or Raubenheimer*) version is welcome to post examples here.
I believe Kroder was also translated as 'carrier' in Sandbach's translation, and that is fine however I think it might be beneficial to leave his name untranslated, as readers would know that this entity has a relation to Chronos / Saturn. 'Carrier' is vague to me, and I think many un-initiated eyes would skip over it.
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Re: Sandbach at sacred-texts vs OL-wiki

Post by ott »

Thanks I will consider it. Kroder has an even more obvious relation to Krodo from the Saxon Chronicle.

I initiallty chose not to include too many strange terms for that could discourage new readers. However, with a footnote at the first appearance of the words, it should be fine. I now feel more like re-introducing more of the original terms and names.
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Re: Sandbach at sacred-texts vs OL-wiki

Post by Wil Helm »

ott wrote: 15 Sep 2023, 05:44 Thanks I will consider it. Kroder has an even more obvious relation to Krodo from the Saxon Chronicle.

I initiallty chose not to include too many strange terms for that could discourage new readers. However, with a footnote at the first appearance of the words, it should be fine. I now feel more like re-introducing more of the original terms and names.
That I would find very welcome!

Off course we are talking about a 'translation'. But a translation should not ever limit the original sense.
In case of the kroder (croder, kruiwagen) we should be able to make the connection ourselves between the original word and the meaning of timekeeping.

The kroder (steelpan, kruiwagen, grote beer, ursa major, big dipper) has many names as a astronomical sign. A charateristic is that it never sets, always visible in the northern hemisphere. Ideal for timekeeping.

If we are talking about the 'kroder', yes we can explain in footnote it means a 'carrier' like a wheelbarrow, like the astro sign of the big dipper (ursa major) is a 'kruiwagen', kruider or kroder. So this will be plain and understandable for all what OLB means with the 'kroder'.
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