2 questions/suggestions for “The oldest teachings”

[ernstnøgtern]

I was reading “the oldest teachings” again today, and as I was comparing the german and english translations I became curious about 2 important terms.

DROCHTNE and WANWYSA

DROCHTNE is translated into “Divinities” in english and similarly “Gottesabbilder” or “Falsche Götzen“ in the Harms translation.

However as I understand it, the litteral meaning of the frisian DROCHTNE is „Lords“ or „Sovereigns“.

The problem for a translation becomes obvious in the sentence.

„Finda's folk are a bad folk, for although their pseudo-wise men convince themselves that they are divine[DROCHTNE] they have created false divinities [DROCHTNE] for the uninitiated
— everywhere proclaiming that these divinities[DROCHTNE] have created the world [WRALDA]with all that is therein“

I believe this distorts the meaning of the sentence and is curious as to how DROCHTNE became „Divinities“ or „idols“.

By keeping the meaning of DROCHTNE as „Lords“ and leaving WRALDA untranslated a very interesting original meaning comes to the forefront

Finda's folk are a bad folk, for although their pseudo-wise men convince themselves that they are LORDS, they have created FALSE LORDS for the uninitiated
— everywhere proclaiming that these [FALSE] LORDS have created the WRALDA with all that is therein.

Does this make sense?

The pseudo-wise (priests) considered themselves as lords over the people, and invented false (unreal) lords which they then claim created WRALDA and all that is in WRALDA.

If it was somehow possible to keep the original meaning of DROCHTNE as „Lords“ it would be an important improvement. Especially since what is being explained here, for the first time in history is what a priestly „divinity“ really is.
It is therefore, i think, not ideal to use the term in the explanation itself.

Regarding „pseudo-wise“ or „vain-wise“ as translation of WANWYSA I think these terms lose the most important aspect of the term, namely WAN- in the sense of „insane“, „crazy“. „ Pseudo-„ is a bit weak and conveys an idea of a „pseudo-intellectual“. „Vain-wise“ is from latin „Vanus“ which means „empty“.

But in german and danish WAN is a well-known word which always signifies a kind of insanity or collapse of reason Wahn, Wahnsinnig etc and in danish „Vanvid“ „vantro“.
If some how the sense of „insanity“ could be retained in the sentence „Their pseudo-wise men…“ i believe that would be an improvement too.
The idea being that it actually is an „insane“ scheme to invent non-existing lords with superpowers, in order to become a ruler yourself.

[Coco]

A considerable number of English words have undergone semantic change since the time of the Fryas, making direct translation to the present-day English language challenging. This issue is less pronounced in other Germanic languages. For instance, the Dutch term "druchten" can still be understood as a god or a warlord.

[ernstnøgtern]

Thank you for your reply.

I am all for using words from greek and latin if they best convey the literal meaning.
What I meant with “pseudo-wise” “vain-wise” is that pseudo- and vain- does not mean the same as WAN, because they both refers to something “futile” instead of “insane” or “deranged”

Now regarding DROCHTNE…

If you open the old testament on any random page, chances are you will see numerous instances of “I am your LORD..” The LORD your God, with his mighty hand…” “Servant of the LORD” etc. etc.

It is in this sense I believe the OLB in this passage uses DROCHTNE.
They simply noticed how the priests, already back then, claimed to know and serve a (false, invisible) Lord, in order to rule as a lords themselves.
And they became baffled when they realised that the priests would claim that a main feature of this invisible “Lord” was that he supposedly created WRALDA and all things in it.


If “divinities” or “idols” is used instead of Lord, these connections might be lost to the reader, and it all gets this “abrahamic” feeling of “idol-worship” “and “false gods” etc.

I am not even sure I would describe what we find in the OLB as “monotheism” maybe not even “religion””, Because these terms seems to somehow group WRALDA with mythological or Abrahamic figures.

In many respects atleast “The oldest Teachings” closer resembles Parmenides or Heraclitus.
Almost a kind of proto-physics.

Would enjoy hearing your oppinion on this!

[ernstnøgtern]

Thank you for your reply.

I found a thread here on the forum on the connection between the earliest western philosophy and the early fryan beliefs.
I elaborated on the point there since it fits better in that subsection.

viewtopic.php?p=655#p655

[ott]

Before or instead of a direct reply to the question/suggestion, here is an exampe of some simple word studies that have been done to find out how words were used, in what context, with what possible meaning(s) and what the standard spelling could or should be.

example word studies.jpg (242.68 KiB) Viewed 3137 times

[Escapeyourcage]

It's difficult to respond to such well-thought out comments, but I have my doubts about the suggestions. A) We use "lords" in other contexts (BURCH​.HÉRAN); B) I believe the meaning of small-g "god"/false "god" goes missing if we substituted "lords" (e.g. for readers with English only). To me "divinities" captures the meaning under B) without muddling terms ("lord", "god") - Divinities = "Any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of some force".

As for WAN - indeed the modern meaning, at least in Danish and German is something like "crazy" - but I do not detect that meaning in Fryas. You mentioned that Latin "Vanus" = "empty", which, to me, seems closer to the meaning implied by WANWYSA. Certainly "Wahnsinn" could mean "empty (absent) of sense" or "a misconception of sense". So, for my answer, it boils down to a chicken or egg question: to glean the meaning of WAN and translate it into modern English, I do not ask myself what WAN means today, but how it is being used in the source - Pseudo = "Not genuine (but having the appearance of)".

I do not defend the solution out of pride. As a journalist/translator/writer, I have long since learned that editing can never be taken personally (unless you want to spend your life in brooding resentment). But I do not immediately see the utility of the suggested changes. They are highly valid observations, and I will discuss them further with Jan. Ultimately, any translation is a poor reproduction of the source.

[ernstnøgtern]

Thank you for your replies!
I completely understand that there are very many things to consider apart from the literal meaning of each sentence. So please don‘t regard this as criticisms aiming at how a final published translation should be.

I am clearly biased towards a prefence for the literal meaning of each sentence, regardless of how silly it sounds. And when it comes to the „primal teachings“ i simply consider them so important that they should get „special treatment.

From the dialogue between Minerva and the priests of Athens it seems like DROCHTEN and GODA are used interchangeably. Minerva uses both words and even calls WRALDAS GAST her DROCHTNE.

But here she is speaking to a priest who has no concept of a god which is „like a force“ and not a „Lord“ . So that might explain why they are used interchangeably.

In „The Primal Teachings“ Harm Menkens notes repeatedly in his german translation that WRALDA is NOT described as a „he“ but as an „it“.
„WRALDA IS THET ALDER-ALDESTA … THET SKOP ALLA THINGA … THET IS EVG.
In footnote36 on p. 164 it reads:
„Vvr-alda und „thet“=„es“! Am anfang der ältesten Lehre ist Vvr-alda = singemäss „das Göttliche“ noch sächlich“
Which could be translated into:
„WRALDA and „THET“= „It“! At the beginning of The earliest Teaching WRALDA = meaning „“The Holy“. it is still ungendered“

This then changes to „him“ and „he“, but how much of this is due to grammar?
In german, a dish-washer is a „she/her“ and a printer is a „he/him“ so must „him“ really entail a „male agent“ or could it be purely grammatical?

I simply do not know enough about the language and its history to answer this. And would be very grateful for any thoughts on this matter.

Again, I consider this of utmost importance. Because if the Fryans took the first plunge into physics and held sacred a force orderly directing change in time, then there is a direct lineage through Ionian and presocratic philosophers, which again later inspired Plato, Aristotle and eventually became the science of today!

[Nordic]

Drocthen - related Finnish word ruhtinas drops the letter d and means a 'prince' or 'royal person'. As noted above by others, there are also related medieval Swedish titles drottning 'queen' and drotte (drotsi in Finnish), the latter denoting a high ranking official. All of these refer to a human ruler.

In Finnish mythology the rulers were sometimes deified and it's common to find references to 'gods' and 'semi-gods'. (Here is an example of a human character being called both turilas i.e. ON þurs 'giant' and puoli-jumala 'semi-god'; historical era Finnish seers and sages were at times called 'semi-god'). This pan-Nordic practise was known to Germanic peoples, too. Here are two examples showcasing the deification, the first one from Norse saga echoing the OL Scandinavia episode and further echoed in Sumerian King List that starts with Alulim i.e. Elohim 'gods'.

Frá Fornjóti ok hans ættmönnum

There was a man named Fornjot [lit. 'ancient-giant', Kaleva, Kave Ukko Iku-Turilas]. He had three sons; one was named Hler [Ukko Väinämöinen], the second Logi [Liekkiö], and the third Kari [Seppo Ilmarinen]. He ruled the winds [ilma 'air'], but Logi ruled fire [liekki 'flame'], and Hler [väinä 'deep river'] ruled the sea. Kari was the father of Jokul, the Glacier, father of King Snae, Snow [Niera, nietos 'snow heap']. The sons of King Snae were Thorri [Iku-Tiera son of Niera], Fonn, Drifa and Mjoll. Thorri was a wonderful king. He ruled Gotland, Kvenland [Kainuu region], and Finland. He was celebrated by Kvens so that snow was made and travel on skis was good. That is their beginning. The celebration is held in the middle of winter, and from that time on was called the month of Thorri [ON month Þorri]. King Thorri had three children. His sons were called Norr and Gorr, and his daughter Goi [aamunkoi, kointähti 'Venus star']. Goi vanished, and Thorri made a sacrifice a month later than he was accustomed to celebrate, and since then the month that begins then was called Goi [ON month Góa]. [...]
He fostered Bergfinn, and was called Finnalf. Bjorn was with his mother and was called Jotunbjorn. She sent Brand to Raum, his father, and he gave him the gods, and he was called Gudbrand. King Raum gave him the valleys, which are called Gudbrandsdal. He gave Raumsdal to Jotunbjorn and to Alf, Estri-Dali and all to the north, and from Gautelf north to Raumelf. All of this was called Alfheim. Gudbrand, the valley king, was the father of Audleif, father of King Gudmund. His son was Gudbrand, who did not want to allow himself to be called king, and took on the title of earl because he wanted to be the richest earl in the northern lands. (source)

Hervarar Saga og Heiðreks

It is said that in the days of old the northern part of Finnmark was called Jötunheimar, and that there was a country called Ymisland [Ume river area] to the south between it and Halogaland. These lands were then the home of many giants and half-giants; for there was a great intermixture of races at that time, because the giants took wives from among the people of Ymisland.

There was a king in Jötunheimar called Guthmund [Guðmundr; Kaleva, Kave Ukko Iku-Turilas]. He was a mighty man among the heathen. He dwelt at a place called Grund [Pohja] in the region of Glasisvellir [cf. Glanshem tower, Glasir grove]. He was wise and mighty. He and his men lived for many generations, and so heathen men believed that the fields of immortality [Ódáinsakr, cf. Odenmaa] lay in his realm; and whoever went there cast off sickness or old age and became immortal.

After Guthmund's death, people worshipped him and called him their god. His son's name was Höfund [Ukko Väinämöinen]. He had second sight and was wise of understanding, and was judge of all suits throughout the neighbouring kingdoms. He never gave an unjust judgment, and no-one dared violate his decision. (source)

When the Germanic peoples refered to Freyr, an ancient or even primaeval human in multiple traditions, as the veraldar goð ''god of the world' - hence the Frisian "Wralda", Lappish "Waralden Olmai" etc. - they may have meant the master of this our world as some sort of the primal teacher and ancestor to our mankind. Why the ancient Frisians put him as the primary first mover is a noteworthy theological question in itself and suggests some sort of a world-spirit instead.

WAN - cf. English vanity, in wain. Rather interesting when thought in context of Æsir-Vanir houses. The latter said in Bock family saga to refer to humans who spoke either Finnish language (arctic Vaner) or any non-Nordic tropical languages (tropical Vaner). In contrast to Æsir (Aser of Odenmaa) who spoke the Nordic Germanic language, said to be the first human language spoken on the planet by first two human beings (Frei and Freia ie. Wralda and Frya). Some have noted in Vanir context the similar sound form to the English word one and Finnish words vaan, vain 'only', which may connect to somewhat similar OL reference to average Finns as 'zeroes' for their own superiors.

[nachtbakker]

As found on Taaldacht.nl, a website for lost/forgotten Dutch words no longer appearing in dictionaries. There are multiple words containing drocht, I'll sum them up translated to English here.

~ meaning related to
≠ meaning not the same word as

drocht1 m. 1 endurance, perseverance, determination, strength, diligence 2 hardship, affliction • Norwegian trott, Icelandic þróttur
drocht2 f. see drucht↓2
drochtegom m. see druchtegoom↓
drochtegoom m. see druchtegoom↓
drochten m. see druchten↓
drochtig adj. 1 enduring, hardening, resolute, vigorous, diligent • Norwegian trottig, Icelandic þróttugur • from drocht1
drochtman m. -lui, -lieden see druchtman↓

drucht1 f. 1 speed, urgency, impetuosity
drucht2 f., drocht2 1 host of loyal warriors, following of a warlord 2 army, lord 3 folk • Swiss G’trücht o., Icelandic drótt • in druchten/drochten, druchtegom/druchtegoom/drochtegoom/drochtegom, druchtman/drochtman, druchtzaat/drochtzaat, ~ driegen2/druigen ‘doing (military) service’
druchtegom m. -gomen see druchtegoom
druchtegoom m. druchtegom, drochtegoom, drochtegom 1 member of the following of a warlord, syn. druchtman/drochtman 2 groomsman • from drucht2/drocht2 + goom ‘man’
druchten m., drochten 1 warlord 2 lord 3 God • Norwegian drott, Icelandic drottinn • from drucht2/drocht2
druchtman m. -lui, -lieden, drochtman 1 member of a drucht (see drucht2), follower of a warlord, syn. druchtegoom/druchtegom/drochtegoom/drochtegom
druchtzaat m., drochtzaat 1 servant in the retinue of a warlord, charged with a task 2 steward 3 justiciary • German Truchsess • same as drost/drossaard (corruption, extension), from drucht2/drocht2 ‘retinue, following’ + zaat2 ‘seated’

To add from personal experience, there's a word we still use possibly relating to drochten: gedrocht, meaning monstrosity. Asking Google Translate to translate drochten to English, it recognizes it as Frysian and also translates that to monstrosities.
Moving to the Dutch word waan, also from Taaldacht.nl:

waan adv. 1 from where • Gelders-Overijssels wann, German (von) wannen, English whence (with adverbial s) • ~ waar↓, wader↓1 comp. daan↓, heen↓

waar1 m. 1 water 2 sea, syn. aag, haf, laag • pos. in Warmond (Zuid-Holland), ~ uur1 ‘moisture; drizzle’, oor1 ‘running water’, water, wassen, ~ waard ‘piece of land surrounded by water’, weer1 ‘piece of land between ditches’
waar2 n., warg2, werg2 1 sleep in the corners of the eyes 2 snot 3 slime 4 pus • Beiers Warch, Norwegian var
waar3 adj. 1 faithful, trustworthy, sincere • same as waar ‘true’, in toorwaar ‘suspicious’, ~ waar4, alwaar/aalwarig/aalwaardig, medewaar/meewaar/meewarig, pos. ~ waar5/gewaar
waar4 f. 1 loyalty, trust 2 vow of loyalty 3 covenant, agreement, treaty 4 protection • in waarganger, waarloog/warlog, from waar3, ~ alwaar/aalwarig/aalwaardig, medewaar/meewaar/meewarig
waar5 adj. waarder, -st, gewaar 1 observant, attentive • German gewahr, English aware, Norwegian var, Icelandic var • in bewaren, gewaarworden, ontwaren, waarschuwen, ware/waar6 ‘alertness’ and names as Dieuwer (Diedewar), Ingwar/Ingwer, ~ ward ‘guard’, warde ‘surveillance’, warn3 ‘wary’, warnen ‘to warn’, waard ‘esteemed, precious’, pos. ~ waard1 ‘host; master of the house’, waar3 ‘faithful, reliable’, not ~ weren ‘to prevent; to defend’
waar6 f. see ware
ware f., waar6 1 attentiveness, mindfulness, attention, heed, care • Icelandic vari m. • in wareloos/waarloos, waarnemen, from waar5/gewaar, pos. ~ waard1

wader1 adv. 1 to where • English whither • ~ waan, waar, ~ dader↓, heder1
wader2 pron., conj. see weder↓2

weder1 m. 1 one year old animal 2 (male) lamb 3 carved ram • Brabants weer, Frysian wear, German Widder • from wed ‘year’
weder2 pron., conj., wader2 1 who or which of both 2 or, either: weder ik leef of sterf 3 nor: weder honger noch dorst • Flemish weer, German weder, English whether, Icelandic hvor • in ieweder/ieder ‘everyone’, wederzijde/weerszijden, wederzins2, enter ‘either, or’, from wa1/wie + -der1/-ter1

daan adv. 1 from there • English thence (with adverbial s) • in vandaan, ~ daar, dader↓, comp. waan, heen↓

dader adv. 1 to there • English thither • ~ daan, daar, comp. heder1, wader1

heen1 m./n. see hen↓1
heen2 n. see haan↓2
heen3 f. 1 sharpening stone, whetstone 2 sharp, upright stone • English hone, Norwegian hein, Icelandic hein • pos. in Hendrik

hen1 m./n. hennen, heen1 1 death, end of life 2 dead 3 corpse, dead body • outdated Drenthish hene, outdated East-Frysian hene, henne, hünne, English hen- (in henbane, Dutch ‘bilzekruid’) • in hennebed, hennebloem, hennekleed, ≠ heen ‘from here, away’
hen2 n. hennen see haan2↓

haan1 verb hoeg, h. gehagen see hagen1↓
haan2 f., heen2, hen2 1 reeds or other tall riparian vegetation• Gronings hoan (in hoanebòlt), heen, een, South-Hollands heen, heent, Frysian hean, henne (in hennebôlen, pos. Hantum, Hinnaard), East-Frysian hane, hân, hânt • in Heenvliet (South-Holland), pos. in Haanwijk (Utrecht), Haanwijk (North-Brabant), ~ hoen ‘reed-land and suchlike.’, pos. ~ hoenen ‘stretch, elevate’
haan3 verb hing, h. gehangen 1 be secured from above so that there is no fall 2 attach from above so that there is no fall • German hahen • old cousin of hanging, ~ hang1 ‘slope, hill’, heng ‘door handle’, hengen/henken, pos. ~ hankeren, hunkeren, hanke/hank ‘loop’

hagen1 verb. hoeg, h. gehagen, haan1 1 can, be able to 2 achieve, produce, gain 3 care for, educate • ~ hage/haag ‘ability’, hag ‘capable’, hagen2 ‘capabel’, hagen3 ‘bull’, hoeg ‘capable’, hekken ‘produce’, pos. ~ behagen, hach ‘young man, daredevil’, hacht3 ‘way of doing things’, hengst, hoek ‘buck’
hagen2 adj. 1 capable, skilled, suitable 2 sexually proficient, of men • in the first name Hagen (older Hagene), from hagen1/haan1 ‘kunnen’
hagen3 m. 1 bull, breeding bull 2 male animal • German Hagen, Hegel, outdated Icelandic högni • from hagen2 ‘capable; potent’
hagen4 m. 1 hedge, thorn hedge • ~ haag, heg, hek
hagen5 verb -de, haggen, haken, hakken 1 to provoke, to torment 2 to quarrel • West-Flemish hagen, hakelen, West-Frysian hakken, Drentish haggeln, West-Phalian haggen, English hag, Norwegian haga • pos. same as hakken ‘to hew’, pos. ~ hagel ‘ice pellets’, hagel ‘evil, hostile’, hagetis ‘witch, sorceress’, haak, hoek, hekel ‘prickle’, hoe1 ‘plough’ (orig. ‘bough’)

Not sure if this is any help, and I'm aware it's become a tad chaotic, though I figured it could hardly be detrimental and writing in BBcode has been a blast from the past. Not everything will necessarily be related to what you're talking about here, but I wanted to at least be as complete as possible.

[nachtbakker]

To add, regarding WYSA:

wijze1 m., wijzer 1 leader • ≠ wijze ‘wise person’, from wijzen ‘to show, to lead’
wijze2 f., wijs 1 sprout, germ, shoot • Icelandic vísir m. • pos. ~ wierig ‘lively’

wijzen1 verb wees, h., is gewezen 1 to stream, to flow • in wijzend ‘stream’, ~ Wezer (Germany), weze/wees2 ‘mead’, wis ‘wet meadow’, wezend1 ‘trachea; esophagus'
wijzen2 verb wees, is gewezen 1 to wilt, to wither 2 to weaken • ~ wijzen2, wezenen, wezel
wijzen3 verb -de 1 to visit 2 to tests, to put to the test • actually ‘to see’, ~ wijs ‘knowing’ (actually ‘seeing’), wijzen ‘to show, to lead’, wijten ‘to see’

wezenen verb -de 1 to wilt, to wither, to waste away, to perish • English wizen, Icelandic visna • ~ wezen2 ‘wilted’

wezel adj. wezeler, -st 1 weak • Norwegian vesal, vesall, visall, Icelandic vesall, vesæll • ~ wijzen2