Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

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Kraftr
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by Kraftr »

Though I don't know that it is what OP says, and I don't want totake away from Christian inspiration, but I would like to point out that believing a text is some magical, unhuman divine revelation and literal immanent truth is a hocus pocus religious practice. Running off with honest human wonder. It leads to many magical beliefs of divine promise, or curses. It is to me the most prominent of the hypnotic spells Abrahamists cast. Next is 'being in the know/the good guys'. (Though maybe Goths means 'the good guys' too? ;) )
For instance being 'a child of Frya'is nothing moral, or elevating, or conditional, just a statement one is european kin, of a great mother. Ennobeling to know and work with, maybe. But not like "a child of God, or 'bride of Jesus". To me it is more relatable, matter of fact, grounding and clear. Similarly Abrahamists to budists to Shopenhauer detest reality and the world as evil from wich we need to elevate. I believe this is the core problem in western thought, this detachment, hypnosis and cerebral arrogance/paranoia.
Though I believe the manuscript to be real and even the text on Jesos as likely believed by the writer to be true, it could in my least charitable view be a selfagrandizing folkish tale to inoculate the children against tales of 'a cool relatable dude from the east'. So they would reply with'yeah we heard about him, he is a friend of us, he learned our ways, and told us not to trust or pay preachers'. This would not make the manuscript less real or authentic. It would be a bit dishonest, yes, the common language OLM is written in feels like it could be a tongue-in-cheek tall tale, and maybe this is the part the official authenticity-naysayers got their doubts from. Possibly also feeling discomfort from cognitive dissonance by engrained Christian thinking. (like OP seems to have?) Again, I don't believe that, since the tone overal seems descriptive of the general understanding among Fryas.
Also possible is what others pointed out, that a Krisna/Christ/Buda figure existed, after our OLM Buda as a school of (antipriesthood)thought, like 'Jesos's teachings', or as a tale of a saviorhero after 500BC in the eastern world up to the Mediteranean. Like many stories( Gilgamesh, Herakles)maybe inspired gurus(like Pythagoras, Mani, Paul the baptist),maybe even someone also called Jesus 'reincarnated' OLM's Buda.
My current view of Christianity is; all of it, stories and real events, got fitted together like a puzzle around this Jesus story with a bit of Judaism and west- and eastern pagan exo- and esotherics. An uberstory to rule them all, to ensure maximum interpretation, both by converts and priests, and smooth transition and melding of people familiar with these other stories and concepts. Open to insert Magi spells, construct ad hoc meaning and weight to very mundane purposes, as we see done in all Abrahamic religions. No reason to dismiss OLM, neither as historical nor as telling of a "true'/'better'religion. The filosofical truths of OLM or OLM's Buda are not depending on the historical truth of this sidestory, or the truth of any Jesus ever existing when- or wherever.
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Pax
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

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In my view, it would be unlike the Frya scribes to create a fictional story and present it as a historical narrative with the purpose of warning the reader. Rather, the scribes tend to skip unimportant details and present narratives in a story-like manner in order to highlight lessons to be learned; so, for example, the Three Thieves story (link) were events that happened, but it is told very concisely. Too many words drown the message, and they also wanted to save on ink, pages and wall space.

You are probably right about cognitive dissonance among those who staunchly declare the book an invention, as well as the idea of an overstory to rule them all; the Bible is vast and provides many flavours that suit almost every kind of person. For this reason, it is very self-contradicting and contains a confusing mix of historical narratives, fiction and half fiction.

I am personally tired of the argument that the “underlying truths” (of Oera Linda's Jesus, for example) are all that matter and that actual grounding in history has little or no value. Imagine if historians resorted to that argument. If this is not what you meant by the end of your post, forgive me; I have heard this type of argument many times now.
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Kraftr
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

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I wanted to express his reasoning to be a fallacy, and that a historical or textual dismatch on Jesus is no proof the manuscript is a fake. I gave the most uncharitable argument I find plausible, so it is purposely unfriendly and not my own; I myself believe OLM claims to refer to actual events told seriously. OP seems to have no doubt on Christian claims of real events, and he can only accept if OL history supports it, and it puzzles me how he believed for many years it was true. I took the opportunity to insert a critique on the lowkey antiworld (antiwralda) hostility of Abrahamic fundaments, like in this case the 'Word of God' prejudice to truth and texts, while showing openmindedness on my end, and a charitable recognition that their opposition may be an effect of their Christian presuppositions to which they may be blind. And thereby showcase how I see this blindness could be an example of a Magi-heritance mindtrick induced by this 'Word of God' spell, that could absolutely be the kind of stuff the OL Magi would insist on, and bend reality with. So if he believes those parts of OL to be true couldn't he be helped in his faith by weighing those things against eachother?
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Nordic
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by Nordic »

I agree with what Pax wrote above on historians and if there is need to try to gauge the historical or cultural information. If one assumes that text's worthyness is primarily based on how realistic (possible) or mundane (immediately believable) the narrative is, most of the Oera Linda book and the Kashmir Jes.us stories rank quite highly to the same category as most contemporary accounts of antiquity, medieval era and most of the likes of Bock saga and some Norse sagas. Most of the time I do not see any reasons to assume that OL wouldn't be describing contemporary things as they happened. Few supernatural elements here and there (saints, visions, supernatural abilities) is not in itself a negative score, as such things are reported today as well (e.g. Miracle of the Sun, security camera footages).

I get how people can see a link between Kashmir Jes.us of OL and Jesus of Christianity, but I have difficulty in comprehending how people can't see the equally or even more obvious Krishna-to-Christ title lineage. Just one of those coincidences akin to Brahma and Saraswati err.. I mean "Abraham" and "Sarah" heading from India err.. I mean "east" towards the Peleset err... I mean "Palestine" region aka Idumea/Odenmaa/Uudenmaa/Ódáinsakr err... I mean "Idumea"/"Údumu"/"Edom".

I actually find it rather interesting that the most holistic cover-it-all version of Krishna-to-Christ grand narrative arch (including Buddha the Finn & Muhammad the Finn) is the "Magi" version in Bock saga and not the one in: OL, Norse sagas, European Roman Christianity, Levantine Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism etc. Of the various individual saint sub-stories in that source, the Buddha one is the most lackluster, with the least of material and the most vaguely generic possible presentation, so perhaps the detailed OL narrative is the actual historical Buddha person.
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Pax
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by Pax »

I think so as well — on top of OL Jesus, Bible Jesus and Buda/Buddha being the same person who has been split by historical confusion. Oera Linda's description of Jesus/Buda/Buddha is matter-of-factual and mundane like the rest of the book; this quality, combined with how excellently the rest of the book has provided answers to historical and linguistic puzzles, and combined with how unlike it would be of the Fryas to deceive, makes it a valuable and reliable source. Contradicting information in other sources makes it harder to paint the full picture, though.

Kraftr, thank you for the excellent explanation.
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Nordic
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by Nordic »

Two sources for those wanting to know more:

"How the Buddha became a Christian saint" by Philip Almond.

and

"the original Buddhist sources of the New Testament Gospels" by late Christian Lindtner.

The Middle-Eastern, Greco-Roman and early Christian "Buddas" story, with possible link to below (as main teacher Scythianus' biographical origin details corroborates to Bock saga Jesus' life).

The Finnish Krishna-Moses-Buddha-Jesus-Muhammad story is included here, but sadly for us here the Buddha one is vaguest of all those pagan the saint stories. Furthermore, unlike other pagan saint stories in the saga, the Buddha story does not seem to have any attested Norse or other European echoes. That being said the historical Vikings did possess Buddha statues: "[...] dates from circa the 6th century AD [...] The Buddha probably arrived in Helgo via Swedish merchants whose eastern trade routes were concentrated along Russian rivers such as the Volga".
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teijahn
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by teijahn »

Kraftr wrote: 14 Jan 2024, 21:17 (...) OP seems to have no doubt on Christian claims of real events, and he can only accept if OL history supports it, and it puzzles me how he believed for many years it was true.(...)
Clarify please, who are you referring to as OP?
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ott
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Re: Hellenia's Kashmir Jesus

Post by ott »

OP is short for 'original poster' (who opened a topic/ started a thread).
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