Magy

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Kraftr
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Joined: 10 Apr 2023, 07:57

Re: Magy

Post by Kraftr »

so I have been searching from a hypothesis that Magi have Iranian roots. It lead me to research a mediterranean route of their influence.
Now I found out about the Sarmatians, who are Iranian, related to Ptolomy, but also moved west displacing the Scythians, making Slavics tributaries and hooking up with Ostrogoths going into Germany. They lived east, (maybe the Kaspian sea flooded?), settled around the Krim. But interestingly, on old maps Russia is sometimes Finnic, sometimes Sarmatia. Ostrogoths would later take over the Roman title. Sarmatian is multiple tribes, but all Iranic. Power and territory names did change hands over time between all these players it appears.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatian ... i/Sarmatia
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ott
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Re: Magy

Post by ott »

It's not clear (to me) what you point is, Kraftr.
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Pax
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Re: Magy

Post by Pax »

I think she/he was just sharing some general thoughts about the origins of the MÁGÍ/MÁGJARA.

Alewyn Raubenheimer's Chronicles From Pre-Celtic Europe (3rd Edition) has a chapter on the Magyars. To summarise: The Magyars of today are the Hungarians (Hungarian: magyarok), but they have mixed heavily with Europeans. The proto-Magyars were Sino-Mongolians who originated from the Altai Mountains in Central Asia. After the 2193 BC disaster that caused the sinking of Aldland and other atrocities, the Magyars expanded west and south.

In the west, the Magyars subjugated the Finns and became a menace to the Fryas. The Oera Linda book confirms that the Finns and Magyars were two distinct ethnic groups (see ch. 8a). The theoretical Finno-Ugric language family suggests their languages mixed over time. In the south, the Magyars subjugated the Indians. The Oera Linda book confirms that the priests ruling over the Indians came from a different land (see ch. 16g). In the southwest, the Magyars infiltrated the Median Empire and later the Persian (or Achaemenid) Empire; this last offshoot of Magyars is probably what Kraftr has in mind. In all cases, they established themselves as a powerful priestly caste practicing shamanism.

Even the Bible speaks of the “Magos” or “Magog” as foreign priestly people, or wise men, which has led to some confusion, as there also existed wise men who were not foreign shamanists, yet were called “magi” all the same; Asha Logos has done a video about this confusion. It is possible the Latin magister “teacher, master” is related to this root meaning. In the Bible, the Land of Magog is described as the mountains to the far north; meaning further away than the Caucasus Mountains. Magog would appear to be related to Moghul, which is an old way to say Mongol. Although the proto-Magyars and proto-Mongols were not identical, they were certainly related.
Vigtig viden eller ligegyldig info?
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Kraftr
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Re: Magy

Post by Kraftr »

I am trying to not subbornly look at the Medditeranean, now exploring the landroute for the Magi. Pax explains it better than I would have, I'm learning from his reaction. For me there may be a similarity between things happening in the Mediterrean and Slavic/Finnic regions, so the Iranian-, Ostrogothic- and Ptolomey connections light up for me. The tactics of mindgames and oppressive tribute made me search for this connection. Could be silly, tactics can of course be copied by unrelated tribes, it's just too intriguing not to speculate, because all biggest piles of wealth probably didn't change hands too often. Most lands in that region were in tributary relations with some tribe, at one time it was the Sarmatians, giving their name to the region they controlled as I deduct from this information. The Finns and Magyar, Slavs and maybe Ostrogoths were at some time subjugated by Magi or had pacts, I believe. I was hoping it would connect to the ideas of others who theorise on the Magi coming from this part of the world (and maybe for them it can become plausible the final tribute collector had similar projects, or 'brothers' in the Mediterranean). Magi is a Persian word for sjaman. Aryan is a Persian word for respectable person, I think they gave that name to the Scythians they worked with.
I'm just puzzling, I'm open to Magi being sent by Indian or even Chinese rulers ultimately, I don't know. The Alans east of the Sarmatians ended up in France, Portugal, Spain and north Africa, and probably mixed with tribes there. So there were many changes of power and location of tribes after this era, so they are not todays Russians Ukrainians perse. I'm suggesting that MAYBE, not saying this IS the tribe that are the Magi, just hoping to learn from others if this is relatable to their concepts.
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Nordic
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Re: Magy

Post by Nordic »

As per DNA research, practically all northern ethnic Russians are by DNA ethnic Finns (see here, Fig 3. part A). Moving geographically towards south and central Europe, they/we gradually become the ethnic Slavs by DNA (read: Ukrainians), representing some other admixture to the basic Finnic stock of north-eastern corner of Europe. Historically in antiquity this exact same gradual change also marked the difference between the central and northern Russian-Finnish regions and the more southern Scythian (Saka), Gothic and at times even Greek influences towards the Black Sea. In that historical demographical-geographical context one could assume a Scythian-Finnish cultural exchange, perhaps via medium of Russian river trade system connecting Baltic Sea and especially the Gotland island market place with the Silk Road (see here).

In OL narrative, only one Finnish prince or god-prince is named (THÍR). Aside of that we know the medieval Norse names of those same Finnish war leaders, princes and commanders due to very close parallels with Norse legends dealing with the issue of conquest of Scandinavia and Denmark (Fŕa Fornjóti/Fundinn Noregr plus Ynglinga saga). It has been recognised since the 1980s, by latest, by Finnish academics that these Norse saga names are not random, but are based on actual Finnish source material characters and dynasties (various SKVR, SKS, SLS etc sources, see here), allowing for naming most of those characters also by their native names. No Persian Magus names appear therein, nor in the oldest archeologically attested OL echo in Weld-Blundell prism at c. 1800 BC. The OL THÍR is even better match than Norse Þorri as it's more true to the source (Tiera, as in Iku-Tiera and Uk[k]otiera of SKVR poetry).

Thus the assumption that Magis of OL is representative of the Finnish seer/sage/wizard class attested also from elsewhere, especially as the pan-European word 'might' is attested also in plentiful Finnish usage e.g. word mahti in SKVR poetry, practically all cultural heroes doing double-duty as spell casters. I personally would tie-in here also Bock family saga and the strict Finnish Aser-Vaner social class system of it, as the upper level Aser (Æsir) do not refer only to 'gods', but also in traditions to trickster magicians able to do illusions. After all, in Norse traditions (Gylfaginning) it's the Æsir Odin who confuses the Finno-Scandinavian Fornjót lineage king Gylfi (i.e. Magi at time of Wodin) and not the other way around. There were later traditions here and there mixing Finns with Persian magis or Scythians*, but as far as I know these are of newer story strata and are not present in the older texts.

Image: Finno-Scandinavian king Gylfi tricked by three Æsir, with all three having names of Odin – a medieval Norse viewpoint opposite to that of OL narrative.
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* These are: 1. textual narrative similarity between Saxo's to Mit-othin/Oller fleeing to Finland/Denmark (Gesta Danorum 1.7.2-3, 3.4.11-12) to tale of Bardiya and Persian Magus Gaumāta (i.e. name Gautama as in Gautama Buddha); 2. narrative similarity between Biblical story of Persian magis being first ones to meet infant Jesus and his family and Finno-Norse-Christian tales of Nordic Jesus or his pregnant mother met and condemned by Finnish elite (Bock family saga, reflected in SKVR poetry on Väinämöinen's judgement on pregnant Marjatta; pope Innocentius III quoted in ch. XIX of Chronicle of Henry of Livonia; as model for main hero in Norse saga Eireks saga víðförla), down to names e.g. Balthazar Balder the Asar or Lemminkäinen, Casper the Per or Ukko Väinämöinen, Melchior the Melqart-Hercules strongman archetype i.e Ilmarinen the smith; 3. the Scythianus narrative matches the Bock family saga Jesus' life details, again with connection to Buddha on both sources (Buddas in Scythianus story, Jesus and Buddha both of Aser lineage in Bock family saga).
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