Astrological material in OL

both within OL texts as in relation to other traditions
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Nordic
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Astrological material in OL

Post by Nordic »

Pentuin opened the talk on astronomical theories in light of OL narrative, anyone wanting to share any commentary on the theme is invited to use this topic.

Some portions of OL that echo the astronomical elements:
[cosmonology, MS 006]
Wralda, who alone is whole and eternal [GOD ÀND ÉVG], created the potential [T.ANFANG]. Then came time, and time wrought all things; even the very Earth herself.

[on Kroder or time, MS 035]
KRODER. THÀT IS TID
the Carrier — that is time

[before the 4.2 kiloyear event, MS 047]
Before the bad times came, our land was the most beautiful in Wralda ['world']. Sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost.
On the trees and shrubs grew fruits and nuts, which are now lost. [...] Years were not counted, for one was as happy as
the other.

[the 4.2 kiloyear event at 2194 BC, MS 049]
During the whole summer, Sun had hidden behind clouds, as if she did not want to see Earth. Wind rested in his bags, causing smoke and steam to stand like pillars over houses and pools. [...] In the midst of this stillness, Earth began to tremble
as if she was dying.
Ott has cleverly noted that the T.Angfang may connect to Roman account of "Tamfana" temples of Germanic peoples, implying they had time keeping and cosmonology related houses where all things astronomical in nature could have been discussed. The Frisian word for time, Kroder, may relate to Greek Cronus (of which words like chronology, chronicle) which is the Roman Saturn.

Most people know that Jove aka Jupiter (Zeus Pater) was the Roman main sky god of lightning and thunder, but they were also seriously interested in the Saturnus cult e.g. their central state treasure doubled as the temple of Saturn (source). It's an open question if the archetype of Saturnus eating children is the model for later European child abuse or ritual murder cults, though from heathen viewpoint it could have been originally about an astronomical parable e.g. EU theory, a fertility cult e.g. semen drinking as 'eating children' or a case of murders withing the ruling family (the Phoenician viewpoint, please see below).

The Phoenicians of OL have their founding mythology to survive in Sanchuniathon's text (source) and there the sun is the main deity though Cronus gets also a curious mention along with Atlas of Atlantis fame:
[...] they stretched forth their hands to heaven towards the Sun; for him they supposed to be God, the only lord of heaven, calling him Beelsamin, which in the Phœnician dialect signifies Lord of Heaven, but among the Greeks is equivalent to Zeus.
[...] Afterwards Cronus having coneived a suspicion of his own brother Atlas, by the advice of Hermes, threw him into a deep cavern in the earth, and buried him [sinking of Atlantis or Atland]. At this time the descendants of the Dioscuri, having built some light and other more complete ships, put to sea; and being cast away over against Mount Cassius, there consecrated a temple.

But the auxiliaries of Ilus, who is Cronus, were called Eloeim [Biblical Elohim 'gods'], as it were, the allies of Cronus; being so called after Cronus. And Cronus, having a son called Sadidus, dispatched him with his own sword, because he held him in suspicion, and with his own hand deprived his child of life. And in like manner he cut off the head of his own daughter, so that all the gods were astonished at the disposition of Cronus.
The Finns of OL have their mythology to survive in Bock family saga (link, main source), where sun (Oden) and moon (Ra) worship is everything and forms the celestial model for governing king and queen system on earth. A female bureocracy is depicted that keeps a record of star systems and living humans so that every living Finn at any given time has a visible name star in the night sky, just next to that person's relatives' name stars. Stars are considered to be of metal and reflect the sun light, echoing the Hindu and Buddhist viewpoint. Saturn does not make any appearance, but Venus must have been elemental as a Norse saga episode, attested also from OL (MS 051), depicts a Finnish princess Gói from Finnish aamunkoi, kointähti 'Venus-star' (she is not present in OL version). I recall Talbot writing some commentary on the Bock saga back in the 1990s, but I can't find the article anymore online or offline (sorry).

The Norse peoples also paid attention to celestial phenomena and their main deity Odin's war stories are the exact same as the war stories of Sumerian Utu kings, named after the sun god Utu (see Oden above; Oden is variant spelling of Odin as is the Frisian Wodin). More about that here. As noted by others, the Norse saga authors must have known that in the split-second instant of a lightning hitting the ground there is a secondary lightning from ground up to sky. This was encoded in the story of thunder god Thor's returning hammer. How the Norsemen could have known this without the access to special slow-motion cameras is an ongoing mystery, as human eye is too slow to notice that.
half life over
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Re: Astrological material in OL

Post by half life over »

In the OLB it tells us that the Aryan alphabet was derived from the Yule and the Yule is a calendar. The calendar in the OLB is only mention in the OLB. There is no other document or manuscript that mentions this calendar. Since the OLB was and is said to be a fake the calendar in the OLB was dismissed as the same. In 1978 during excavations at the Vinkovci-Hotel site, in a pit of the late classic Vucedol Culture pottery was discovered that had a calendar system printed on it. This calendar is the calendar in the OLB. Not only is it the calendar it also shows the “W” is as old as the OLB claims it to be. Below is a comparison of the calendar mention in the OLB and a pottery showing the same system with the “W” from the excavation (ref 1).

The picture of the pottery was found on a Oocities site where Aleksandar Durman Department of Archaeology, University of Zagreb, Croatia first release information about his finds to the public. In a peer reviewed article written by Aleksandar Durman called Celestial symbolism in the Vu≠edol culture, he goes into detail about the calendar system. Here is a direct quote, “Cassiopeia in the form of the letter W is particularly interesting. In this period it was not a circumpolar constellation, and at the summer solstice it rose at the setting of the Sun, at 8 PM. Cygnus (like the cross of St. An-drew) is high above the eastern horizon” (ref-2). He clearly mentions the “W” as a symbol for Cassiopeia. Or the first symbol of Wralda as stated in the OLB. Even though the paper he published doesn’t show any pottery with the “W” symbol he clearly states it was present on different pottery with calendar system.

Not only do you have the same symbolism, you have the calendar divided into six fields, “On the large Vu≠edol terrines, a zone with a depiction of the heavens extends from the horizon to the upper rim of the vessel (Fig. 17). This is divided by vertical boundaries (usually two parallel lines) into 4 or 6 fields” (ref-2). This system is the exact same system in the OLB. Because this calendar system is only found in the OLB and the calendar was discovered over 100 years later by a person who never heard of the OLB we can say that this is the greatest piece of evidence that proves the OLB authentic.

Reference:

1- The pottery above showing the W symbol – http://www.oocities.org/vucedol_culture/Lifestyle.htm

2- Celestial symbolism in the Vu≠edol culture – https://journals.uni-lj.si/DocumentaPra ... 28.12/6185
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Re: Astrological material in OL

Post by Pentuin »

Here is some more material from Talbott's The Saturn Myth. He is discussing the sense in which the notion of an Allfather God related to the notion of the Primorial Monarch. Note what he says about the Lapps.
Though the language [of the poem his has just quoted] pertains to the later-evolved imagery of the Heaven Man, it leaves no doubt that the archaic doctrine conceived Saturn’s body as the entire Cosmos. The legendary cosmic giant originated in the mythical recollections of Saturn’s all-encompassing form.

In Zoroastrian myth this celestial giant is Zurvān, widely recognized as Saturn. The mystic traditions define Zurvān as the “first principle” and the “original seed.” He is, writes Zaehner, “the father of the Cosmos. From his seed proceeds the entire material Cosmos…” In the creation Zurvān provided, or emitted, the “original unformed matter” from which the wheel of the Cosmos was produced. The idea is precisely that the Egyptian “primeval matter” or the alchemist’s prima materia, i.e., Adam, the Primordial Man.

The created Cosmos, say the Zoroastrian texts, took the form of an immense giant named Spihr, housing the elements of fire, wind, water, and earth. The Spihr was “the First Body,” “the body of Zurvān of the Long Dominion.” “As the god whose body is the firmament he is macrocosm [Cosmos as a whole] corresponding to man, the microcosm [Cosmos in miniature],” observes Zaehner. Thus did Zurvān come to be viewed as “the prototype of man,” eventually acquiring human form as the first ancestor—“the origin of the human race.”

Saturn’s identity is the Heaven Man and the first ancestor occurs again and again in Gnosticism, in alchemy, and in the traditions of the Kabala. “As the first man,” observes Jung, “Adam is the homo maximus, the Anthropos [Man par excellence] from whom the macrocosm arose, or who is the macrocosm. He is not only the prima materia but a universal soul which is also the soul of all men.” Saturn, Jung adds, is a synonym for Adam and the prima materia. The planet is the Philosophical Man or Original Man—“the blessed Man on high, the arch man Adamas.”

In the Great Magical Papyrus of Paris, Kronos/Saturn is “Lord of the World, First Father.” Orphic thought identifies the primordial man Prometheus with Saturn; the Lapps speak of the ancient Waralden Olmay, or “World Man”—who “is the same as Saturnus”; and Norse legend identifies Saturn as the Heaven Man Kroder.

All of this means simply that the primordial Cosmos originally signified the limbs of Saturn—a circle of secondary lights revolving in the company of the giant planet. The terms conventionally translated as “Cosmos,” “heaven,” “world,” “universe,” or “firmament” (as in the previous paragraphs) denoted the primeval, celestial order of which Saturn was king and which collapsed with Saturn’s fall.
Did anyone happen to notice that in the pacific northwest of the US, at least, the moon was fully visible today at midday. It was quite spectacular, but I looked at it with by binos and thought to myself: Might there have been a time when Saturn backing Venus and Mars was just as visible in the sky, except 8 times as large as the moon in apparent size?

I believe they call this kind of lunar appearance a "Da Vinci Glow"!
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Re: Astrological material in OL

Post by Pentuin »

It also occurs to me that many people here (perhaps most) are unfamiliar with the Velikovsky/Talbott/Thornhill/Cardona/Cochrane thesis. Here's a link to a good video on the topic. The book contains a lot of additional material. Talbott concludes that while Velikovsky was wrong on a number of particulars, and had no access to the new EU physics paradigm, he clearly saw the implications of a cross-cultural analysis of the global myth structure:


https://archive.org/details/euniverse
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Re: Astrological material in OL

Post by Pentuin »

More about that here. As noted by others, the Norse saga authors must have known that in the split-second instant of a lightning hitting the ground there is a secondary lightning from ground up to sky. This was encoded in the story of thunder god Thor's returning hammer. How the Norsemen could have known this without the access to special slow-motion cameras is an ongoing mystery, as human eye is too slow to notice that.
Thor's hammer wasn't lightning, it was a thunderbolt. Whole different scale. Thunderbolts can form mountain ranges, or grand canyons like the Valles Marineris on Mars. They are massive scale electrical discharge machining of the surface. Take a look at the Richat Structure on Google Earth. The exchange between the planets' plasma sheaths were clearly visible as an exchange, and as Peratt demonstrates, the images were recorded in the hundreds of millions during the Younger/Dryas. The "When the Bad Times Came" passage in the OLB is a classic description of such a situation.

There are various theories about when the most recent ones occurred, but it begins around 11,000 BC, and the most intense period lasted for a few hundred to a thousand years, but there could have been a recurrence very close to historic times. Peratt also notes that the petroglyphs are all on rocks with a south facing view, and also with a shield that partially blocks the intense synchrotron light. Most recording projects involve thousands of people attempting to reproduce what they actually saw.

One of the strange things about the neolithic petroglyphs is that they're not naturalistic, like the paleolithic images of bison, aurochs, antelope, etc.. They're strange, like the classic "squatter man" and many many concentric discs with specific numbers or dots characteristic of plasma instabilities or "Z-pinches".

What's important to note is that the gods (the limbs of the father god) were not abstractions. They, like the Allfather himself, were visible in the sky both day and night. I know, I know... this is gonna be hard to swallow. But the evidence is pretty overwhelming. See https://www.thunderbolts.info
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Nordic
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Re: Astrological material in OL

Post by Nordic »

Pentuin wrote: 30 May 2023, 12:33 Here is some more material from Talbott's The Saturn Myth. [...]
[...] Orphic thought identifies the primordial man Prometheus with Saturn; the Lapps speak of the ancient Waralden Olmay, or “World Man”—who “is the same as Saturnus”; and Norse legend identifies Saturn as the Heaven Man Kroder.
That above is an OL reference by Talbott, to best of my knowledge there are no Kroder mentions in any Norse sagas (other than as researcher surname in academic texts). In OL there is and parts of OL belong or connect to the Norse saga literature genre.

Also the Cassiopeia note relayed by half life was interesting:
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We have also these old depictions (source):
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In medieval Anglo-Saxon poetry Saturn was seen as father of Jove or Thor (source). A longer vesion is given in OL-related Norse saga Frá Fornjóti:
[sons of Noah and Japeth] Saturnus in Crete, his son Jupiter, his son Darius, his son Erichonius, his son Troeg, his son Ilus, his son Lamidon, his son Priam the main king. The king in Troy was called Munnon or Mennon. He married Troana, daughter of King Priam; His son was called Tror, who we call Thor (source)
European Saturnus turns up as one "Sà.tùr.nun.ta.è" in Babylonian deity list (source, p. 78, line 99, ~us is a Latin language suffix).
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Re: Astrological material in OL

Post by Pentuin »

That above is an OL reference by Talbott, to best of my knowledge there are no Kroder mentions in any Norse sagas (other than as researcher surname in academic texts).
I didn't include any footnotes in my quotation, but there is a footnote to the Norse legend about Kroder being Saturn. It is to Schwabe, and there is an earlier quotation from the source:
"Adam-Kadmon ist nach der Kabbala der erste Mensch, der Ur-mensch, die erste aus dem Unendlichen, der absoluten Vollkommenheit (En Sof), unmittelbar hervorgehende Emanation, in der ältesten hebräischen Mystik Gott selber.” Schwabe, Archetyp und Tierkreis, 9.
My German is a bit rusty so I'm not quite sure what the quotation says, but Google translates it as:
Adam-Kadmon is the first human being after Kabbalah, the primordial man, the first emanation to emerge directly from the infinite, absolute perfection (En Sof), in the oldest Hebrew mysticism God Himself." Schwabe, Archetype and Zodiac, 8-9.
The note about Kroder comes later in The Saturn Myth and is to the page just prior to this quotation about Adam-Kadmon, from the source: Archetyp und Tierkreis.

The reference to the Lapp legends is not to the OL but to De Santillana and von Dechend, Hamlet’s Mill, 130. I saw it as a triangulation to the OL.

Sorry about the mix-up.

Will check out your reference to Cassiopeia, but it seems to me that after the cataclysm all of the cultures paid close attention to the placement of the stars and planets as the threat receded, because they all feared a return. In fact every small comet or meteor that appeared in the sky sent them into a tizzy of doom, and they connected the appearance of comets to the death of a great king or ruler.
Er Aldaric
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Re: Astrological material in OL

Post by Er Aldaric »

You are right Pentuin, this is a lot to take in. I have some questions. First of all I'd like to know if Talbott came to these conclusions via cross referencing mythology exclusively. I had done a little bit of research on his work since your posts and it seems that for an astrological theory it has no math surrounding the physics - unless it's present in his book which I did not read. The EU Theory on the other hand was formulated to combat the discrepancies of todays astrophysics, the 'dark matter' problem, so it can hold water as a revisionist model for our universe. Did Talbott formulate his theory based off mythology and then justified the physics by interpreting it via the EU model? (That isn't very scientific). Talbott's theory, if correct does provide insight into two things, Saturn worship (and the rabbit hole that follows), and why the ancients placed so much value on the planets, which are merely specks in the night sky alongside other, countless specks. There are also other problems, how could there be any survivors after such a cataclysmic event? There are also some mentions of Talbott's organization acting cult-like, extracting a lot of money out of it's followers.
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Re: Astrological material in OL

Post by Pentuin »

half life over wrote: 28 May 2023, 20:21 “Cassiopeia in the form of the letter W is particularly interesting. In this period it was not a circumpolar constellation, and at the summer solstice it rose at the setting of the Sun, at 8 PM. Cygnus (like the cross of St. An-drew) is high above the eastern horizon” (ref-2).
This is how Hancock gets into trouble, using a simulation to run the clock back. This is uniformitarianism, or "the present is key to the past." But in fact the sky was completely different in the past, because the universe is not run by gravity but by electro-magnetism. Gravity is just a side effect. What we have is a palimpsest, where the original has been painted over and obscured by a later construction. Everything depends upon what "period" he's talking about, because the change in the orientation of the constellation was sudden. There was Saturn in the middle of the northern sky, and then an intense and long lasting aurora in the south. The "wheel" was literally the planet Saturn which framed two other planets, Venus and Mars, in that order. Saturn produced the increments of time as a rotating crescent. Look at the frequency with which a crescent shape is depicted. The alter is even in the shape of a saddle or upturned crescent or horns. The "Adorant" is not a human figure. It's a plasma instability, and a classic one. See Peratt's explanation of these figures:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... tt+website

(This is not to say that Cassiopeia doesn't play a role. Perhaps it took up a place previously occupied by another celestial body and was conceptually superimposed? Lots of research still to do.)
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Re: Astrological material in OL

Post by Pentuin »

Er Aldaric wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 19:57 You are right Pentuin, this is a lot to take in. I have some questions. First of all I'd like to know if Talbott came to these conclusions via cross referencing mythology exclusively. I had done a little bit of research on his work since your posts and it seems that for an astrological theory it has no math surrounding the physics - unless it's present in his book which I did not read.
Talbott says that he was ready to give up because he couldn't find a physics theory that explained what his cross-cultural analysis showed. Then he met Wal Thornhill, and just about everything fell into place. Together they launched the Thunderbolts Project, which is made up of physicists, cultural anthropologists, and everything in between. There is still some controversy over exactly how the polar configuration happened, but there is a mathematical/physics explanation for how it could happen, so the physics isn't the sticking point.
The EU Theory on the other hand was formulated to combat the discrepancies of todays astrophysics, the 'dark matter' problem, so it can hold water as a revisionist model for our universe. Did Talbott formulate his theory based off mythology and then justified the physics by interpreting it via the EU model? (That isn't very scientific).
It's very scientific. EU Theory is the explanation, rather than the justification. It's a form of triangulation like a double blind test. The evidence is the cultural expressions of the primary archetypes, and requires an explanation. If anyone can find another explanation he's open to it. As a matter of fact both Talbott and Thornhill, and many others, were inspired by Immanuel Velikovsky, so it's not quite a "double blind".
Talbott's theory, if correct does provide insight into two things, Saturn worship (and the rabbit hole that follows), and why the ancients placed so much value on the planets, which are merely specks in the night sky alongside other, countless specks. There are also other problems, how could there be any survivors after such a cataclysmic event? There are also some mentions of Talbott's organization acting cult-like, extracting a lot of money out of it's followers.
There's a lot of resistance to EU Theory, and one of the standard justifications for cancelling it is that it's a cult. But I find little cult-like behavior. Quite the contrary, it follows precisely the course suggested by Thomas Kuhn in his The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. There are also people within the group that question and test their assumptions, like this guy. He's constantly looking for holes:

https://www.youtube.com/@SeethePattern
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