An attempt at available source material prioritization

Discussion related to the history of the manuscript and earlier publications about it.
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PýrKlépsas
Posts: 20
Joined: 01 Jan 2023, 17:44

An attempt at available source material prioritization

Post by PýrKlépsas »

Hello everyone!

To continue the theme as described in my introduction (See viewtopic.php?t=8) I want to make a list about the most fundamental source material that we are working with. To make other people's work easier, but also maybe spark interest and make conversation happen. Starting from the oldest mansuscripts all the way up to the codexes are in first tier, then late middle ages (the dawn of renaissance), times of the reformation and after that later studies etc. Of course for obvious reasons Oera Linda reaching all the way so far back into the past I'd just blatantly place it in there, so don't be confused it's not mentioned in the list. I want to first explain one thing about the way I'm working:

I've been looking into the way bible translation was going on in the time of church reformation in Europe and I have come to realize something. First, knowing that how much source material has been destroyed regarding the translation process in those times, also all the way in the time Vulgata (early latin translation of the bible) and old Vulgata (meaning all other latin translations before the one by St. Jerome) and how much has been overall forgotten, I've come to appreciate the translators of the bible a lot more than some years before (even though I'm not a believer). How written language came into being comes out very negatively as a phenomena in Bock saga, and even though there were a lot of suspicious motives behind the church reformation, I can appreciate the fact that when bibles got its' structure with chapters and verses people of different backgrounds were presented with a whole new opportunity to jump back to past and read the parts with a completely alien language but still comparing the bible translations in our native tongue we can still make out the most of the information.

I know that the bible translations that came after 19th century has changed all of this. Because the folk of the past had the source material that we no longer have, amazingly, translating ''the thought'' of the past is actually made possible comparing the old bible translations, and I'm not sure if many people are aware of this. Because it was regarded as one very important work, it was most commonly accessible in many places, and because language similarities in many countries the translators could use other translations as a reference point. This might be or might not be the reason why even the first finnish translation of the New Testament by M. Agricola in 1548 (was already ready in 1541) relied heavily on the german translation by M. Luther, the same as the other translators, and all of this is clearly visible if you read the early bible translations.

Let me just write here that I think Wikipedia is super biased about the the whole subject. You would not believe me. I'm considering putting here also a writing about what I've found out about the translation process of the bible up to this moment.

So as long as we have the understanding that on what sound a a specific symbol, a letter, is based on, we have a pretty good toolset to work with. Due to the status and the contentual value of the bible, (some of) the oldest manuscripts are of special importance, and this holds true with other traditions besides ie. christianity, for example gnosticism and writing of the early church fathers. Bringing importance to a specific subject among all possible spectrums and fields makes the focus of the student less burdening (making the spectrum more ''scarce'' may have its' benefits timewise... but ultimately not, and so that's why the need for further evaluation is inevitable either way), and in this way, especially with earliest (koptic) greek translations of the bible connect the huge ammount of the earliest old greek manuscripts through language, and from there opens all possible alternative approaches to work with, for example:

#1: In both Bock saga and OL a language similar to english actually seems much much more older than thought in this day and age, so - the claim that the European languages were very much influenced with latin and greek so all perspectives on the past with etymology is a fable in its' possibilities at most flips upside down. The Vatican only had the holy mandate to do whatever with the languages before and after the crusades, and this didn't change in the time of the reformation. So the possible connections, for example, of the latin and greek (and some other ones left unmentioned for now) with Scandinavian languages and English

Think for yourself:
Claim A - nevermind the latin and greek languages, because they were a mixture of other languages of that time.
Claim B - nevermind the early documentation of the other languages besides latin and greek because they just copied from them.

The available arguments run a full circle. Laughable.

#2: Considering that, for example, there is a connection between some hypothetical finnic language (finnish + sami + karelian + meänkieli + etc.) to ''old english'' <--> fryan language.

#3: All sorts of new theories. Here's one example that Wiktionary has left unmentioned completely, why??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poimandres#Etymology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herder#Sheep
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ποιμήν#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/paimen


So, overall, as mr. Ott already seemed to give a taste of already (Saved from the Flood ~ Oera Linda Studies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK6syrYezLQ), the past connection of greek to other languages seems to be some kind of game changer. The languages maybe, but the words themselves haven't changed so much as we are led to belive?

I now start to list the materials and source sites on this. I may accidentally seem a bit biased on some materials because my attention is more in the side of Bock saga. It just so happens that as-language (the ''swedish'' language spoken in the southern parts of Finland) is very poorly documented before the time of reformation (the first swedish translation of the new testament came out in 1526), so my priorities may be different than some of the others'. And please recommend me stuff if you think I left something unmentioned or ask a question or questions.
PýrKlépsas
Posts: 20
Joined: 01 Jan 2023, 17:44

An attempt at available source material prioritization, part 2

Post by PýrKlépsas »

*WORK IN PROGRESS*

Earliest bible manuscripts
Codex Sinaiticus(4th century)
Codex Vaticanus (4th century)
Codex Aleksandrinus (5th century)
(I leave hebrew manuscripts unmentioned)
https://archive.org/details/newtestamen ... t/mode/2up
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInt ... _Index.htm

Vulgate (4th century)
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/2 ... nctus.html, http://www.catholicbible.online, http://www.latinvulgate.com, http://www.speedbible.com/vulgate/, http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/bible.html

Nag Hammadi library* (4th century ?) besides other gnostic writings found elsewhere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hamma ... _tractates, http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlcodex.html, https://scholarlyeditions.brill.com/cglo/

Classical writings
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/co ... reco-Roman, https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/ancient/asbook.asp, https://topostext.org/texts, https://www.theoi.com/Library.html

Early judeo-christian writings
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com, https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/, https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/, https://www.ccel.org/fathers.html, https://www.logoslibrary.org
https://web.archive.org/web/20141015155 ... h-fathers/
https://www.earlychurch.org.uk/people_menu.php
Notable mentions:
Epiphanius of Salamis
https://web.archive.org/web/20150906041 ... on_bk1.htm
Clement of Alexandria
https://www.logoslibrary.org/clement/

Norse mythology material
Mythical sagas:
http://www.germanicmythology.com/FORNAL ... RMAIN.html
Skjöldunga saga:
http://www.yokoiscool.com/skjoldungasagaindex.html
http://www.yokoiscool.com/arngrimur1.html
Ynglinga saga:
https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/heim/02ynglga.htm
https://skaldic.org/m.php?p=text&i=1440&v=mss
Codex Regious:
https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/index.htm
https://books.google.fi/books?id=1viLHx ... q=inauthor
https://skaldic.org/m.php?p=ms&i=394
http://www.germanicmythology.com/Poetic ... vamal.html

Wessex gospels
https://textusreceptusbibles.com/Wessex

Cotton library
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... on_library

Many old bibles
(english) http://oldebible.com, https://www.bibles-online.net

Early swedish language bibles
https://gupea.ub.gu.se/handle/2077/3355 ... tribute=sv, http://runeberg.org/nt1526/, https://project2.sol.lu.se/fornsvenska/ ... 5-GVB.html, https://litteraturbanken.se/författare/ ... 4/faksimil, https://www.stepbible.org/version.jsp?v ... SweKarlXII, https://bibel.se/wordpress/index.php/an ... attningar/

Early finnish language bibles
https://www.finbible.fi/kooste/Matteus/Matteus.htm

Works of William Shakespear
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2270
http://shakespeare.mit.edu

Olaus Rudbeck's Atlantica
https://gupea.ub.gu.se/discover?rpp=10& ... one&page=1

Irish mythology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythological_Cycle

Old Finnish and Karelian poems
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5186, (finnish) https://skvr.fi

An Anglo-Saxon dictionary, by Joseph Bosworth
https://bosworthtoller.com, https://archive.org/details/anglosaxond ... 3/mode/2up

Bible in veps
http://finugorbib.com/bible/vepsa/00_b_index_na.html

* https://coptic-dictionary.org/search.cgi, http://gospel-thomas.net/x_transl.htm, https://marcion.sourceforge.net/coptic- ... budge.html
Last edited by PýrKlépsas on 24 Jan 2023, 15:21, edited 4 times in total.
Helgiteut
Posts: 33
Joined: 31 Dec 2022, 13:48
Location: Melbourne, VIC

Re: An attempt at available source material prioritization

Post by Helgiteut »

PýrKlépsas wrote: 14 Jan 2023, 16:52
#2: Considering that, for example, there is a connection between some hypothetical finnic language (finnish + sami + karelian + meänkieli + etc.) to ''old english'' <--> fryan language.
Hello PyrKlepsas, do you mean to say that there is a link between Finnic and North-Sea-Germanic languages?
Brea, bûter en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk
PýrKlépsas
Posts: 20
Joined: 01 Jan 2023, 17:44

Re: An attempt at available source material prioritization

Post by PýrKlépsas »

Hello PyrKlepsas, do you mean to say that there is a link between Finnic and North-Sea-Germanic languages?
Hi!
A short answer would be ''yes'', but it's best for you to get the full picture from the main source.
First, how this is discussed from the perspective of Bock saga:

Michel Merle speaking in 1986, 1:45:50 - 1:54:56
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP3zGCJdCrQ&t=1127s

Ior Bock speaking in 1998, 7:37:23 - 7:50:49
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuG-_SUumXk&t=14094s

I have difficulties of getting the straight quote from the saga-people about the exact part of the story where the mentioning of asers constructing the english language came to be through mixing of as- and van-languages. But here's a quote about this way how asers did things:

''Tarinan mukaan Uudenin maan aaserit konstruoivat aikoi­naan vaanereitten kielen...''
The story tells us that there was a time when the asers of land of Oden constructed (konst in rot means ''art'' & stro → hay-''straw'' or strålar → a light ray in english & tro → ''true'', in rot: believe/think) the language of the van-people...

Source: Bockin perheen saaga, 1996, by J. Javanainen, page 21 (The book is based very trustworthy because it is based on the recordings by Ior Bock and many many interviews)
https://www.docdroid.net/crdDlsM/bockin ... df#page=32

This way, yes, if Ior Bock's story is true, there should be a somekind of connection of finnish to germanic language, but note that the story does not say anything about van-people traveling to Middle- or West-Europe thousands of years ago, but it was the ''english'' language that spread. Though these things happened such a long time ago, that it may be up to us how we think about these things.

Asers had a seafaring-culture, vaners had an in-land-culture. In finnish kindom is ''valtakunta''. In OL forest seems to translate as VALDA, and a german word ''kunde'' means customer (like customs?), like kinn, kunne etc. So, valtakunda could have simply ment ''forest folk'', and that's a respective way to describe the in-land-culture of the Finland.

Here's a small snippet translated with Google:

''...almost half of the kalevala ingredients are also found in Estonian folklore.'' (Geographically, what significantly separates Finland and Estonia from each other IS the Baltic Sea, ''Itämeri'', East-Sea in finnish)
https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%C3%A4m ... _mytologia

This is a good writing, but it is in finnish. You can translate it using Google if you want.
https://journal.fi/elore/article/view/78249/39148
Google translate seems to make saaristolaisepiikka into ''island epic'', but it should rather be epics of island-living people, ie. of people living by the sea. Writers like Matti Klinge have made suggestions about the possibilities of the Karelian poetry is influenced by times when the people telling the original stories were living by the sea, and this perspective changed the whole narrative of the way finnish people living in the times before the crusades. The Karelians, like many other tribes, obviously, had to escape in-land because they didn't want to get killed in the times of the crusades.

Hoping I answered your question!
PýrKlépsas
Posts: 20
Joined: 01 Jan 2023, 17:44

An attempt at available source material prioritization, part 3

Post by PýrKlépsas »

*WORK IN PROGRESS* (?)

Some writers of modern times and books by them

Some books to help researches everywhere. Feel free to copy and share etc. Like I mentioned earlier, you can recommend me things if there's a need to update the list. I'm still trying to make sure I put everything here that I have found.

I left out the books that are in finnish. Making a separate list for that.

Writers listed by the first letter of their surname (with many writers, the first mentioned):

A
Marc Alexander—Sutton Companion to British Folklore, Myths & Legends (2002)
Selby Angus—Mystery-Religions (1975)
W. Arens—The Man-Eating Myth - Anthropology & Anthropophagy (1979)
Geoffrey Ashe—The Discovery of King Arthur (1985)

B
Annie Besant—Christianity: It’s Evidences, It’s Origin, It’s Morality, It’s History (1876)
Roger Beck—The Religion of the Mithras Cult in the Roman Empire (2006)
James Billington—Fire in the Minds of Men: Origins of the Revolutionary Faith (1980)
Helena Blavatsky—The Secret Doctrine (1888)
Joseph Bosworth—An Anglo-Saxon dictionary (1848)
G.W. Bowersock—Fiction as History - Nero to Julian (1994)
John Brand & Henry Ellis—Observations on Popular Antiquities (1815)
David Braund—Greek Religion and Cults in the Black Sea Region: Goddesses in the Bosporan Kingdom from the Archaic Period to the Byzantine Era (2018)
Herbert R. Broderick—Moses the Egyptian in the Illustrated Old English Hexateuch (2017)
Ernest Busenbark—Symbols, Sex and the Stars in Popular Beliefs (1949)

C
C.Carpelan&A.Parpola&P.Koskikallio—Early Contacts between Uralic and Indo-European: Linguistic and Archaeological Considerations (2001)
Tobias Churton—Gnostic Mysteries of Sex: Sophia the Wild one and Erotic Christianity (2015)
—The Mysteries of John the Baptist - His Legacy in Gnosticism, Paganism, and Freemasonry (2012)
Ananda K. Coomaraswamy—Elements of Buddhist Iconography (1935)
Arthur Cotterell—The Encyclopedia of Mythology (1996)

D
Goblet d'Alviella—The Migration of Symbols (1894)
Alain Daniélou—The Phallus (1995)
Edward Davies—Celtic Researches on the Origin, Traditions & Language of the Ancient Britons (1804)
—The Mythology and Rites of the British Druids (1809)
John Paul Davis—Robin Hood: The Unknown Templar (2009)

E
Thor Ewing—Viking Clothing (2006)

F
Penelope Farmer—The Texts of Early Greek Beginnings - Creation Myths of the World (1979)

G
Marion Gibson—Witchcraft Myths in American Culture (2007)
Karl Gjellerup—Den Ældre Eddas Gudesange (1895)
John Glad—Jewish Eugenics (2001)
Elizabeth E. Goldsmith—Life Symbols as Related to Sex Symbolism (1924)
E.A.Gordon—Symbols of the Way - Far East and West (1916)
Daniel W. Graham—The Texts of Early Greek Philosophy Vol.1 (2010)

H
Martti Haavio—Väinämöinen - Eternal Sage (1952)
Robert Hieronimus—America’s Secret Destiny: Spiritual Vision and the Founding of a Nation (1989)
J.H. Hill—Astral Worship (1895)

I
Thomas Inman—Ancient Pagan and Modern Christian Symbolism (1875)
Alan V. Insole—Immortal Britain (1952)

J
Peter D. Jeans—Seafaring Lore & Legend - A Miscellany of Maritime Myth, Superstition, Fable, and Fact (2004)
Hargrave Jennings—The Masculine Cross and Ancient Sex Worship (1874)
—The Obelisk: Notices of the Origin, Purpose and History of Obelisks (1877)
—Phallicism, Celestial and terrestrial, Heathen and Christian (1884)
—Ophiolatreia (1889)
—Phallism: A Description of the Worship of Lingam-Yoni (1889, reprinted as Phallicism ca. 1890-91)
—Culturus Arborum (1890)
—Fishes, Flowers and Fire as Elements and Deities in the Phallic Faiths and Worship (1890)
—Nature Worship (1891)
—Phallic Miscellanies Facts and Phases of Ancient and Modern Sex Worship (1891)
—The Round Towers of Ireland and the Adoration of the Vulva (year? Pamphlet)

K
David King—Finding Atlantis - A True Story of Genius, Madness, and an Extraordinary Quest for a Lost World (2005)
Karen L. King—The Gospel of Mary of Magdala - Jesus and the First Apostle (2003)
G.Klaniczay&É.Pócs—Witchcraft and Demonology in Hungary and Transylvania (2017)

L
Albert Terrien de Lacouperie—The Babylonian and Oriental Record Vol.1-5 (1886-1901)
—Western Origin of the Early Chinese Civilisation from 2,300 B.C. To 200 A.D (1894)
Lars Levi Lӕstadius, edit. Juha Pentikäinen—Fragments of Lappish Mythology (2002)
David Adams Leeming—The World of Myth - An Anthology (1990)
Llewellynn Jewitt—The Reliquary and Illustrated Archaeologist (1860-1886, Journal)
Mark Edward Lewis—The Flood Myths of Early China (2006)
C.S.Littleton& LindaA.Malcor—From Scythia to Camelot (2000)
Andre Van Lysebeth—Tantra: The Cult of the Feminine (1995)

M
Conor MacDari—Irish Wisdom Preserved in Bible and Pyramids (1923)
Edain McCoy—Witta - an Irish Pagan Tradition (1996)
Ludo J.R. Milis, transl. Tanis Guest—The Pagan Middle Ages (1991/1998)
Patricia Monaghan—Encyclopedia of Celtic Mythology and Folklore (2004)
L.B.Mortensen & T.M.S.Lehtonen with A.Bergholm—The Performance of Christian and Pagan Storyworlds: Non-Canonical Chapters of the History of Nordic Medieval Literature (2013)
Myroslava T. Znayenko—The Gods of the Ancient Slavs (1980)

N
Adele Nozedar—The Eement Encyclopedia of Secret Signs and Symbols (2009)

O
Gananath Obeyesekere—Cannibal Talk - The Man-Eating Myth and Human Sacrifice in the South Seas (2005)
William Tyler Olcott—Sun Lore of All Ages - A Collection of Myths and Legends Concerning the Sun and Its Worship (1914)

P
Nigel Pennick—Magical Alphabets: The Secrets and Significance of Ancient Scripts - Including Runes, Greek, Ogham, Hebrew and Alchemical Alphabets (1992)
J.H. Philpot—The Sacred Tree or The Tree in Religion and Myth (1897)
Albert Pike—Indo-Aryan Deities and Worship - as Contained in the Rig Veda (1872)
—Book of the Words (1874)
A Revised Edition of Julius Pokorny’s Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörtebuch - Proto-Indo-European Etymological Dictionary (2007)
E. Pococke—India in Greece, or Truth in Mythology (1852)

R
James M. Robinson (edit.)—The Coptic Gnostic Library, Vol.1-5 (1975-1995)
E.Roesdahl&D.M.Wilson—From Viking to Crusader - The Scandinavians and Europe 800-1200 (1992)
Allen G. Roper—Ancient Eugenics (1913)
T.W. Rolleston—Myths and Legends of the Celtic Race (1986)
L.&M.Roman—Encyclopedia of Greek and Roman Mythology (2010)

S
N.&Z.Schreck—Demons of the Flesh: The Complete Guide to Left-Hand Path Sex Magic (2002)
Robert J. Scrutton—The Other Atlantis (1977)
Philip A. Shaw—Pagan Goddesses in the Early Germanic World - Eostre, Hreda and the Cult of Matrons (2011)
Thomas William Shore—Origin of the Anglo-Saxon Race (1906)
A.G. Smith—Viking Designs (1998)
Steven Sora—The Lost Colony of the Templars (2004)
Rudolf Steiner—The Occult Significance of Blood (1912)
Yuri Stoyanov—The Other God: Dualist Religions From Antiquity to the Cathar Heresy (2000)
Joseph Strutt—A Complete View of the Dress and Habits of the People of England, from the Establishment of the Saxons in Britain to the Present Time, Vol.1&2 (1796&1799)
F.J.Swetz&T.I.Kao—Was Pythagoras Chinese? (1977)

T
Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak—The Arctic Home in the Vedas (1903)
Sarah E. Titcomb—Aryan Sun-Myths - The Origin of Religions (1889)
T.R.Twyman&A.Rivera—Baphomet - The Temple Mystery Unveiled (2015)

W
Laurence Waddell—Aryan Origin of the Alphabet (1927)
C. Staniland Wake—Serpent-Worship, and Other Essays,with a Chapter on Totemism (1888)
Hensleigh Wedgwood—A Dictionary of English Etymology (1872)
Noah Webster—Webster's etymological dictionary, with the meanings revised and many thousand words added by A. Machpherson (1869)
Sigurd Wettehovi Aspa—Finlands Gyllene Bok I (1915)
—Finnische ortsnamen in gallia transalpina und frankreich (1935)
J.M. Wheeler—Bible Studies: Essays on Phallic Worship and Other Curious Rites and Customs (1892)
Richard H. Wilkinson—The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt (2003)
Toby Wilkinson—Genesis of the Pharaohs (2003)
Thomas Wilson—The Swastika, the Earliest Known Symbol, and Its Migration (1896)
E.J. Michael Witzel—The Origins of the World’s Mytholgies (2012)

Series:

Celtic Mythology A to Z (2004) by Gienna Matson
Chinese Mythology A to Z (2004) by Jeremy Roberts
Egyptian Mythology A to Z (2000) by Pat Remler
Roman Mythology A to Z (1992) by Kathleen N. Daly

The Routledge Dictionary of Gods and Goddesses, Devils and Demons (1984) by Manfred Lurker
The Routledge Handbook of Greek Mythology (2004) by Robin Hard
The Routledge Handbook of Scripts and Alphabets (1997) by George L. Campbell & Christopher Moseley
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