The issue of original Thor

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Nordic
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The issue of original Thor

Post by Nordic »

Helgiteut put forth the following question about the OL 058 Týr or THÍR character (Finnish form Tiera, Norse form Þorri):
So would Thunor and Teu have sprung from the same god, only later being distinguished before becoming part of a pantheon?
Short answer: I don't know.

There are multiple facets to the issue. It seems that there existed multiple similarly named Thor-alike mythical figures, gods, deified god-kings (Þorri above), paralleled by the plurality of similar Zeus kings in history, as noted by church father Eusebius ("begat Zeus. There had been also another Zeus, the brother of Uranus and king of Crete, far inferior in fame to him of later birth.") and Alexander the Great's father was one such Zeus king.

The words Donner, thunder, Thunaer, Thor bear some similarity to the actual thunder echo in the skies, so may in the first place represent the sound of the sky phenomena. It could thus be very primaeval stone age name that was archaic already in antiquity. The OL suggests such an old age for the Týr deity, for the Finns of earliest OL mentions at 2000 BC are a mixed stone and copper technology level people (OL 052: "The Finns have stone weapons, while the weapons of the Magyars are of copper").

From Nordic pantheons the academics have detected multiple apparent duplicates and Thor figures are part of that:
  • Odin-Thor-Loki
  • Helblindi-Býleistr-Loki
  • Ægir-Kári-Loge (or in Finnish: Väinämöinen, smith king Ilmarinen, Liekkiö).
Further echoes include the smith prince Wayland, Horagalles or Thora Galles and 'windman' Biegga-almmái aka Ilmaris.

Warlike Thor retains the smith element in his choice of weapon, the Thor's hammer. His returning magical hammer represents in Norse viewpoint the lightning that first strikes down from sky and afterwards from earth back towards the sky (how old Norse peoples could have known that latter thing, lasting mere split seconds, is a major oddity). Just as Thor is a warlike deity with smith's hammer, so has smith Ilmarinen an additional byname 'Warfoot' (Sotajalka), known to Norse peoples as warlike conqueror king Olimar or Olimarus in Latin form (Gesta Danorum, bk. 5).

So what came first - the thunderer, the smith, the warrior or the king? A difficult question to answer. If the topic is extended from Thors to other thunder, smith and war gods the following emerges. If we go from Fennoscandia eastwards to India, we see the following sky gods:
  • Ilmarinen or Ilmari (Finns) ↔ Inmar (Russian Finns)↔ Indra (India).
If we go from Fennoscandia south towards the Mediterranean Europe, we see the following names:
  • Ilmarinen the Warfoot (Finns) ↔ Ilmārs (Balts) ↔ Marsi (Germanic tribe towards Frisia) ↔ Marsi (old Italian tribe) ↔ Mars (Italian war god).
Again, which one is the oldest root model for all others? Difficult to say. Are there any certain or almost certain things to be remarked on Thor the thunder god issue? Sure there are few.

1. Classic Thor the thunder god archetype is largely absent from OL, unless we assume THÍR is one, based on the THÍR ↔ Tiera ↔ Þorri similarity. Overall that character's presentation is rather limited in OL narrative and is mostly about calendar, as in Norse month Þorri (January) and corresponding Finnish month tammikuu 'oak-moon' (January; oak is thunder god's tree):
"Týr was the name of one of their gods, and it was on his annual day that they had landed" [source: OL 058-059]

"Thorri was a wonderful king. He ruled Gotland, Kaenland [Kvenland, Kainuu], and Finland. He celebrated Kaens so that snow was made and travel on skis was good. That is their beginning. The celebration is held in the middle of winter, and from that time on was called the month of Thorri." [source: Frá Fornjóti]
2. The medieval Christian era Norse confusion if Thor is a Nordic character or a king in Troy of Turkey is seemingly Roman and Roman Catholic influence (Romans as cultural descendants of the Trojans) combined with confusion with Finnish king Þorri (OL THÍR), perhaps due to Turku (medieval form Turci) ↔ Turkey mixup. This is seen in likes of Adam of Bremen's chronicles and medieval Norse sagas where Finns take the role of Trojans (e.g. Finnish princess Hleidi as kind of Helen of Troy figure in Bósa saga ok Herrauðs, ch. 8, 10).

That there really existed a separate Troy in Turkey and a Nordic king Þorri ruling over the Finns is seen from likes of OL mentioning the both (OL 058, 199) and Alaksandu treaty.

3. Norse thunder god Thor's additional name Öku-Þor has been correctly decoded by academics as 'Ukko-Thor' after the Finnish thunder god Ukko (ukkonen 'thunder', ukonilma 'Ukko's weather', 'thunder'). This is supported by the name Uk(k)otiera, being the same as Finnish king Þorri or Thorri of Norse Frá Fornjót sagas (Finnish deity Týr or THÍR in OL). The Norse or Frisian sources do not mention this, but the Finnish originals they're based on includes at least three Ukko-names: As with the Mediterranean Zeus kings above, this suggest that thunder god name Ukko was a similar recurring title in northern Europe and hence Thor's additional byname Öku-Þor (Uk(k)otiera), perhaps modelled on king Þorri, the god Týr of OL.
Last edited by Nordic on 04 Jan 2023, 14:52, edited 4 times in total.
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ott
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Re: The issue of original Thor

Post by ott »

To add to this, there may be some confusion (compare: Odin/Wotan) between a god and the simple personification of thunder. For fragments with 'thunder', see blog post TONGAR - thunder. Personifications (for example of time, fame, truth, freedom) are common in Oera Linda as well as Dutch art history. These can easily have been misinterpreted as 'gods' and 'godesses'.

The 'actual' or more original name of the deity may have been (as spelled in OL) THÍR, supposed namegiver of Tyre and the Tyrians:

8d. Tunis and the Tyrians [058/30]
THÍR ALSA HÉTON HJA ÉN HJARAR DROCHTENA ÀND VPPA THAM.IS JÉRDÉI WÉRON HJA THÉR [059] LAND. TO WITHER.JELD WILDON HJA TÜNIS ÉVG AS HJARA KÀNING BIKÀNNA.
Týr was the name of one of their gods, and it was on his annual day that they had landed. In return, they would recognize Tunis as their eternal king.
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